Falkirk Wheel Closing to Boats?

[Iain_S]

On 4/7/2017 at 12:08, WotEver said:

I'm wondering if each side is pushing things as far as they dare in the expectation that a last-minute compromise will be found. It's purely a question, I have zero knowledge of either party. 

As far as Capercaillie goes, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Scottish Canals' preferred  trading agreement involves them taking a percentage of turnover, (N.B. turnover, NOT profit!). I'm not sure if Capercaillie also pay S/C. each time one of their boats traverses the wheel, as S.C. charge for commercial operators who use the wheel.

I did hear that the proposed charges for Capercaillie's new trading agreement were up by 400%,  but I don't know how accurate that is. They had been in discussion/negotiation with Scottish Canals for several months before their announcement, but felt they were getting nowhere.

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Iain_S said:

As far as Capercaillie goes, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Scottish Canals' preferred  trading agreement involves them taking a percentage of turnover, (N.B. turnover, NOT profit!). I'm not sure if Capercaillie also pay S/C. each time one of their boats traverses the wheel, as S.C. charge for commercial operators who use the wheel.

I did hear that the proposed charges for Capercaillie's new trading agreement were up by 400%,  but I don't know how accurate that is. They had been in discussion/negotiation with Scottish Canals for several months before their announcement, but felt they were getting nowhere.

 

 

 

 

It is my belief that anyone who finds themselves in discussion/negotiation with Scottish Canals invariably feels that they are going nowhere. But then this will soon be the case with navigation on the Lowland Canals themselves: with the cessation of regular boat traffic along the Union Canal – brought about by the demise of the hire boat operation – the waterway will continue to silt up as, despite much protestation to the contrary, there is little dredging actually taking place.

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Scottish Canals Campaign Update

IWA continues to be extremely concerned about the future of the Forth & Clyde and Union canals, despite having received a response to a letter to Scottish Canals from its Chairman, Andrew Thin.  IWA's main concern continues to be the increase of fees to five times their present rate for use of the Falkirk Wheel, which has led to the announced closure of all hire fleet operations based at Falkirk.  Without these boats, the activity on the canals will be dramatically reduced, and the future of these restored waterways will be at stake.   These are among some of the points raised with Scottish Canals in a further letter in which IWA National Chairman, Les Etheridge, writes:  “IWA considers that there is more at stake here than a private company going out of business, and we would ask Scottish Canals to do all that it can to encourage a sustainable hire boat presence on the Lowland Canals, in order to preserve the future and ongoing use of these waterways.”

[Iain_S]

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/business/deal-with-boat-firms-means-plain-sailing-from-falkirk-wheel-1-4420541

 

Call me cynical, but ...

[magpie patrick]

11 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/business/deal-with-boat-firms-means-plain-sailing-from-falkirk-wheel-1-4420541

 

Call me cynical, but ...

Cynical or accurate? I'm not entirely surprised at the outcome...

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It could well be tears before bedtime when Black Prince and ABC discover the realities of boating under the SC estate agent-led regime – where major stoppages take place at the height of the season, passage through the Falkirk Wheel is severely restricted and a two-month bridge (spanning the waterway) painting contract involves erecting scaffolding just a few above water level.

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The poor beleaguered Falkirk Wheel is back in the news again, this time with reports of bits dropping off it, on not one but two separate occasions, over a spread of several weeks. Hard hats, for both boaters and operatives, are now the order of the day! Perhaps Scottish Canals' plans to turn it into a fair ground ride are not so clever after all.

[DHutch]

On 4/16/2017 at 19:37, Iain_S said:

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/business/deal-with-boat-firms-means-plain-sailing-from-falkirk-wheel-1-4420541

 

Call me cynical, but ...

Indeed. It is however good news!

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30 minutes ago, DHutch said:

Indeed. It is however good news!

Indeed!

 

However, my fear (based on past experience) is that there are likely to be tears before bedtime ...............

[haggis]

It is quite sad really. Scottish Canals are having an event to celebrate 15 years since the Wheel opened and although it was mentioned at the last User Group meeting in March the date has since been changed and not only have boaters not been invited to take part they haven't even been told about the change of date. We,  the boaters , worked with SC to celebrate all the opening events on the Lowland canals and all the 10th anniversaries and it was good to help publicise our canals.

Now Scottish Canals who seem to see themselves as property developers, don't seem to want anything to do with boaters 

Quite sad really 

Haggis 

 

[WJD]

Having worked on the F&C, the Union and the Wheel I can say that there will be no impact to trip boats, hire boats or private boaters. Unfortunately there are boaters and companies with their own agendas due to the pricing on these canals. These individuals are talking down the canals which could have an impact on cruiser hire in the main. The ABC hire fleet has signed an agreement with SC to continue operating the hire fleet in Scotland without Capercaille who have decided to stop trading due to the new pricing. SC is not there to subsidise businesses. Good luck to ABC for the future. It will still run like clockwork. And there will be no restrictions on the wheel which does not work to full capacity on any day.

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23 minutes ago, WJD said:

Having worked on the F&C, the Union and the Wheel I can say that there will be no impact to trip boats, hire boats or private boaters. Unfortunately there are boaters and companies with their own agendas due to the pricing on these canals. These individuals are talking down the canals which could have an impact on cruiser hire in the main. The ABC hire fleet has signed an agreement with SC to continue operating the hire fleet in Scotland without Capercaille who have decided to stop trading due to the new pricing. SC is not there to subsidise businesses. Good luck to ABC for the future. It will still run like clockwork. And there will be no restrictions on the wheel which does not work to full capacity on any day.

I understand that it has just been announced that the 'Rotate' project has been kicked into touch – at least for the time being – on the grounds that SC want to concentrate on it's core navigational role of maintaining the Wheel in good condition (or some such).

As for the ABC hire fleet's future I certainly hope it prospers, if only so that many more people have the opportunity to enjoy the Lowland Canals, but I do struggle with a single sentence that includes the letters SC and the word Clockwork!

[WJD]

Unfortunately your information is not up to date. The Rotate project is still going through the feasability stage and has not been reported to the board yet. I remember your boat very well and trust you will remain on the canal. One of the worst decisions ever taken by the board was to move to volunteering running the locks. Although in cash terms saved very little as the company who run the volunteers are paid for this service. In my opinion this is when the service started to get worse. 

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7 minutes ago, WJD said:

Unfortunately your information is not up to date. The Rotate project is still going through the feasability stage and has not been reported to the board yet. I remember your boat very well and trust you will remain on the canal. One of the worst decisions ever taken by the board was to move to volunteering running the locks. Although in cash terms saved very little as the company who run the volunteers are paid for this service. In my opinion this is when the service started to get worse. 

If my information is wrong, it would mean that Scottish Canals' Director of Estates – Ms Katie Hughes – has changed her mind in the course of the day. Mind you, stranger things have been known to happen in that department!

I do hope your recollection of my boat is for the right, rather than the wrong, reasons. And I reckon that, on the ground, I get superb service from a dedicated team of bank staff who are a pleasure and a delight to boat alongside. Their knowledge, experience and general forbearance is second to none.

[WJD]

Unless you have it in writing, take it with a pinch of salt.

Also I remember you and your boat for the right reasons. I treated everyone the same. Makes for a more enjoyable day.

I am also pleased that you are delighted with the volunteers. Now that I am retired,I have been monitoring the service from lock 20 to lock 3 and have seen some good practice and some bad practice. Either poor training or not following the training. All of which I have logged. The volunteer companies say they are not out to cost SC jobs but that unfortunately is the outcome. The volunteers are unpaid while their parent company is paid. And SC seasonals have been decreased dramatically. For some of these people it was their only income. Now done for free apart from the parent company. I am not a disgruntled ex employee, as I am retired I just want to see the canals prosper with the limited funds they have. I am looking at setting up my own company to be able to tender for the contract next year and man it up with ex seasonals.

 

 

[haggis]

Good that you are monitoring the volunteers doing the locks and I think if that had been done when the locks were operated by SC casuals you would have found that everything wasn't perfect then too. I know I saw some dangerous practices then which I reported 

Probably pretty even the efficiency /safety practices then and now 

As far as I understand the cost to SC of volunteers doing the locks is the equivalent of one paid person who organised the volunteers. 

It was SC 's decision to move to volunteer locking and the blame for casuals not being employed now is SC s not the company organising the volunteers 

Haggis 

 

[WJD]

Hi haggis.

I won't give your name away.

The volunteers cost 4 seasonal jobs. I could give you the exact figures for the volunteers supervisor payments and I am sure you would be shocked but I won't. There are 2 actually.

As for the experience of the seasonal returners against volunteers, the returners win sorry.  

Probably a little bit of bias on your part.

 

 

 

[haggis]

16 minutes ago, WJD said:

Hi haggis.

I won't give your name away.

The volunteers cost 4 seasonal jobs. I could give you the exact figures for the volunteers supervisor payments and I am sure you would be shocked but I won't. There are 2 actually.

As for the experience of the seasonal returners against volunteers, the returners win sorry.  

Probably a little bit of bias on your part.

 

 

 

I don't know what casuals are paid nor what the contract for the volunteers costs SC and I agree to a certain extent that it is not right that volunteers take away SC employees jobs but it is an SC decision to work this way. Had BWS allowed user operation of locks and bridges at the outset we wouldn't have been in this position now and a lot more people would enjoy boating in Scotland. It never ceases to amaze me that boaters everywhere apart from the lowland canals are capable of working locks - you are even allowed to do them yourself on the Crinan

I have found the BWS /SC guys on the ground to be excellent but they are sadly let down by those in charge and as someone who put a lot of effort into helping get the millennium funding the future of our canals worries me

Haggis 

 

 

[WJD]

Seasonal payments are not a secret. They are in the advert each year for the posts.

The payments to the volunteers supervisors are just lower than 4 seasonals added together.

I agreed at the outset that it was a bad decision on SC part. I feel for the volunteers as it is worse than a zero hrs contract. No pay at all.

As for BWS and user operation, over 40 boaters were trained on how to operate locks 17 to 20. The number of times they did it themselves is in single figures. In fact they requested assistance even though they were trained.

SC management has faults and in my opinion do not value the ground staff enough.

Soon it will be all chiefs and no Indians, but the canal has to stay open to maintain salaries. Some paid more than the PM and FM.

The canals have a limited amount of cash and boaters will never be able to keep it afloat, pardon the pun. All boaters would have to pay thousands of pounds each which would in turn mean no  boats on the canals

Bad decision to split BW

 

In England it appears to be getting better.

 

Perhaps we have more in common than you think.

 

 

Best wishes.

 

[haggis]

I think we are on the same wave length 

:-) 

Enjoy your retirement! 

All the best Ann 

[WJD]

Many thanks

 

And please pass on my best wishes to Ian. I hope you are both healthy and enjoying life.

 

WJD

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, WJD said:

As for BWS and user operation, over 40 boaters were trained on how to operate locks 17 to 20. The number of times they did it themselves is in single figures. In fact they requested assistance even though they were trained.

Possibly snag there is Bonnybridge? If you have to contact S.C. 48 hours in advance, anyway, you might as well ask for assistance with the locks at the same time ...

[WJD]

For the 3 bridges on the F&C they are a 2 person operation plus if the bridges fail on auto which has happened many times, you have to go to control panel and switch to manual using the wand. Doubt they will ever go to user operation as one boat with 2 crew would only leave one person to open the bridge. Boaters always thought that user op would solve all of their travel issues. As part of bridge operation the emergency services are informed 24hrs in advance of booked passage. I could open the bridges on auto, stop them midway, switch to manual and have them closed again within a few minutes. User operation in Scotland won't happen unless all bridges have drop locks like Dalmuir and that would cost millions. Anyway Ian you are on a canal with no locks and 1 bridge which is opened immediately when you call. You are one of the lucky ones who can cruise for 32 miles with no obstructions. Now that must be a joy.

[Up-Side-Down]

14 hours ago, WJD said:

Unless you have it in writing, take it with a pinch of salt.

Also I remember you and your boat for the right reasons. I treated everyone the same. Makes for a more enjoyable day.

I am also pleased that you are delighted with the volunteers. Now that I am retired,I have been monitoring the service from lock 20 to lock 3 and have seen some good practice and some bad practice. Either poor training or not following the training. All of which I have logged. The volunteer companies say they are not out to cost SC jobs but that unfortunately is the outcome. The volunteers are unpaid while their parent company is paid. And SC seasonals have been decreased dramatically. For some of these people it was their only income. Now done for free apart from the parent company. I am not a disgruntled ex employee, as I am retired I just want to see the canals prosper with the limited funds they have. I am looking at setting up my own company to be able to tender for the contract next year and man it up with ex seasonals.

 

 

Yep, seen it in writing!

My comments referred to the the full timers and seasonals. I don't have enough experience to comment on the volunteers.

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, WJD said:

For the 3 bridges on the F&C they are a 2 person operation plus if the bridges fail on auto which has happened many times, you have to go to control panel and switch to manual using the wand. Doubt they will ever go to user operation as one boat with 2 crew would only leave one person to open the bridge. Boaters always thought that user op would solve all of their travel issues. As part of bridge operation the emergency services are informed 24hrs in advance of booked passage. I could open the bridges on auto, stop them midway, switch to manual and have them closed again within a few minutes. User operation in Scotland won't happen unless all bridges have drop locks like Dalmuir and that would cost millions. Anyway Ian you are on a canal with no locks and 1 bridge which is opened immediately when you call. You are one of the lucky ones who can cruise for 32 miles with no obstructions. Now that must be a joy.

I don't see Dalmuir going to user operation!