Battery doesn't seem to be charging

[WotEver]

37 minutes ago, hackenbush said:

Could I test the alternator by attaching my mulitmeter to the leisure battery, starting the engine and seeing if the readings shoot up or not (as with a car)?

Yes you could, but this is likely to only show what we think we already know from your OP, namely that the alternator isn't charging. 

What we need to do is to isolate the other possible reasons for no charge (such as loose belt, dodgy wiring etc). 

[hackenbush]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Yes you could, but this is likely to only show what we think we already know from your OP, namely that the alternator isn't charging. 

True, but for some reason I'm really hoping it may be something else simpler and cheaper to fix

[smileypete]

Try giving the engine a good rev once warm to see if it kicks in.

Normally with a cheap A23 Lucas type alt you can try and 'flash' a 12V 8 watt bulb between +12v and the alt's lamp connection to see if this helps it kick in. But this could smoke some jap alternators!

So the more supporting info given in the first post, the better the advice will be. Sometimes a few pictures may help.

[Tony Brooks]

I also wondered about the revs thing as  the OP did not identify the actual Lister mode. It could be the camshaft driven engine pulley thing again. No harm in giving it a good rev to see. However once the belt is checked I expect it will turn out to be the alternator.

[cuthound]

Do you have a multimeter capable of reading 15 volts DC? 

If so, connect the multimeter to the battery terminals (positive to positive and negative to negative).

Note the voltage  - should be 11-12 volts approximately, depending on state of battery charge. 

Start the engine and rev it out of gear. 

Note the battery voltage - should rise from the voltage measured with the engine stopped, possibly up to around 13-14 volts, again depending upon state of battery charge.  

If the voltage doesn't rise, then the alternator is faulty and best taken for repair.

Edited March 20, 2017 by cuthound
Spillung

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

If the voltage doesn't rise, then the alternator is faulty and best taken for repair.

Or it's the belt. Or it's the wiring.

[chubby]

On a scale running between 1 & Expert my knowledge would be around 0.5 . 

But ... as someone who had to go thru altenator probs two years ago and as someone who knew absolutely nothing about how to fix it i can reassure the OP that if they must save money on this issue then it is a job they could almost certainly do themselves . With a great deal  of help from the forum i managed it and i knew nada . 

I did all the testing etc myself but in the end a new alternator was needed . It cost me £160 so though unwelcome it wasn t too costly a fix . It took many hours for me to work thru the process of elimination to determine the fault / s but this was my time and not someone elses at £40 - £50 per hour . At one point i did get someone in to look at it . This " professionals " abilities reached 0.75 on the scale above . 

The point of my post is to attempt to reassure Hackenbush that it is a completely do able DIY job to fit a new one if it turns out to be necessary. Its diagnosing the problem thats   

potentially problematic with no alternative to follwing instructions of where to stick ones  testmeter etc . This is the laborious bit - atleast it is if you are learning as you go . 

Id ask if the engine was being run whilst stationary for charging purposes ? Was it in idle ? Did the OP give it a burst of revs in neutral after turning engine on ? Maybe the alternator never kicked in ( or excited it as i seem to remember from my problems ) 

Edited March 20, 2017 by chubby

[Tony Brooks]

But to give such advice about testing and potential repair we need to know what we are dealing with. In this case the alternator make and model so a photo or two would help immeasurably.

The Op needs to be aware that we may suggest some tests that he does not think are relevant but we would still need to know the answer.

[MtB]

I'll second Tony and Chubby's posts above. 

To start with, we need to know the engine and the alternator. Exact models please, not just the brand. Saying 'its a Lister' is no more help then telling your garage your car is a Ford. Lister and Ford have both made quite a few completely different models over the last 50 years!

Photos of the engine and the alternator would be helpful if you can't identify them by looking for/finding the data labels. 

[chubby]

Without doubt you are correct Tony . When I received alot of help during my altenator problems i tried as best i could to describe results to the various tests i was sent away to perform etc  . On the whole id no idea what they were for . But folk who did know how to interpret the results wanted the various tests done and so they were . Following the tests it was decided the alternator was dead and so i set about sourcing another . 

I expect the OP will be back with the details requested in due course . 

At least he hasn t suggested replacing the engine yet as in another recent thread where a lack of info was a hindrance to meaningful help . 

I reckon Hackenbush will be back soon enuff with the relevant details 

[hackenbush]

7 hours ago, chubby said:

On a scale running between 1 & Expert my knowledge would be around 0.5 . 

But ... as someone who had to go thru altenator probs two years ago and as someone who knew absolutely nothing about how to fix it i can reassure the OP that if they must save money on this issue then it is a job they could almost certainly do themselves . With a great deal  of help from the forum i managed it and i knew nada . 

I did all the testing etc myself but in the end a new alternator was needed . It cost me £160 so though unwelcome it wasn t too costly a fix . It took many hours for me to work thru the process of elimination to determine the fault / s but this was my time and not someone elses at £40 - £50 per hour . At one point i did get someone in to look at it . This " professionals " abilities reached 0.75 on the scale above . 

The point of my post is to attempt to reassure Hackenbush that it is a completely do able DIY job to fit a new one if it turns out to be necessary. Its diagnosing the problem thats   

potentially problematic with no alternative to follwing instructions of where to stick ones  testmeter etc . This is the laborious bit - atleast it is if you are learning as you go . 

Id ask if the engine was being run whilst stationary for charging purposes ? Was it in idle ? Did the OP give it a burst of revs in neutral after turning engine on ? Maybe the alternator never kicked in ( or excited it as i seem to remember from my problems ) 

Very inspiring thanks.

i

[hackenbush]

ve revved and monitored battery and no change. Checked the belt and seems to be working fine. Wires look to be perfectly connected.

ive scanned both the alternator and the engine and can't find any identification on either - really scanned thoroughly. Best I can do is supply photos from my very ancient phone taken in dying light

 

[chubby]

Id be surprised if the experts here don t manage to identify the alternator . I expect that you 'll be needing your multimeter soon ........ 

[hackenbush]

I remembered that the old owner had said he wanted to fit an alternator (it didn't have one) but gave up trying. I've found the alternator he failed to fit. After I bought the boat the boatyard fitted their own alternator. 

So, I do have a spare. How good it is or whether it works at all is unknown but I'm guessing if he was going to install it he must have believed it would. It may be very low quality though.

 The only ID I can see it on it is "Lucas"

 

 

[bizzard]

42 minutes ago, hackenbush said:

I remembered that the old owner had said he wanted to fit an alternator (it didn't have one) but gave up trying. I've found the alternator he failed to fit. After I bought the boat the boatyard fitted their own alternator. 

So, I do have a spare. How good it is or whether it works at all is unknown but I'm guessing if he was going to install it he must have believed it would. It may be very low quality though.

 The only ID I can see it on it is "Lucas"

 

 

Your engine looks like an SR3. It has the the large diameter alternator drive pulley on the camshaft, so that is good. The alternator on the engine is a recon, probably a cheapy. There are recons and there are recons, you pays yer money and takes yer chance.  The old alternator should fit. You may have to use washers as spacers on its mounting bolts to keep the belt in perfect alignment and  adapt the cable terminals to fit.  I can't see the differences between the two in the photos.

[hackenbush]

48 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Your engine looks like an SR3. It has the the large diameter alternator drive pulley on the camshaft, so that is good. The alternator on the engine is a recon, probably a cheapy. There are recons and there are recons, you pays yer money and takes yer chance.  The old alternator should fit. You may have to use washers as spacers on its mounting bolts to keep the belt in perfect alignment and  adapt the cable terminals to fit.  I can't see the differences between the two in the photos.

This may explain why it conked out. I don;t think the replacement will be much better but at least it may run for a while. If I were a pro how long would the job take to replace the alternator?

[bizzard]

7 minutes ago, hackenbush said:

This may explain why it conked out. I don;t think the replacement will be much better but at least it may run for a while. If I were a pro how long would the job take to replace the alternator?

If its a direct straight swap with no adapting about 15 minutes. I'd hold it alongside the one on the engine to compare them. Length between bolting lugs, types of terminals ect. The older one does have the sliding dowel on its bolt lug which should help.

[hackenbush]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

If its a direct straight swap with no adapting about 15 minutes. I'd hold it alongside the one on the engine to compare them. Length between bolting lugs, types of terminals ect. The older one does have the sliding dowel on its bolt lug which should help.

Any obvious things I should do/look out for?

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, hackenbush said:

Any obvious things I should do/look out for?

I can't quite see in your photos but the terminals might be different. The terminals on the alternator on the engine look like stud and nut terminals and I think the ones on the other are Lucar spade push on terminals. Check that the lug where the adjusting bracket fits is in the same place. The inside measurement between the two inline main mounting lugs on both alternators is similar. They will have the sliding dowel in one lug to take up any small difference. And that the pulley is of similar diameter.

[David Mack]

Googling 400242 as shown on your 2nd photo brings a link to rmlunits.com alternator part no 100-058, which it says is a 12v 70 A alternator and a replacement for a Lucas  LRA 517.

Sorry, can't do links on this phone.

[hackenbush]

I remembered that the old owner had said he wanted to fit an alternator (it didn't have one) but gave up trying. I've found the alternator he failed to fit. After I bought the boat the boatyard fitted their own alternator. 

So, I do have a spare. How good it is or whether it works at all is unknown but I'm guessing if he was going to install it he must have believed it would. It may be very low quality though.

 The only ID I can see it on it is "Lucas"

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

The first alternator (the all metal one) is a Lucas A127 clone. The old one with the big plastic end cover is a late version of a Lucas ACR. They should be direct swaps EXCEPT the A127 has a nut & stud main terminal while the ACR uses a PAIR of 9mm blades. It is just possible but very unlikely that the second large blade is for battery sensing but I have only seen them on a few MOD applications. If you do swap I would  advise, bodge that it is, that you strip back and split the the main red cable enough to fit 2 x 9mm blades on the end and insulate the lengths of bare conductors. This is because in vehicle use one blade fed the battery while the other fed the car's electrical loads so the full output never went through just one blade.

Before you condemn the newest alternator do just one  extra test. Undo the nut holding the small/thin wire onto the stud but leave the terminal on the stud for now. Turn on the ignition. The warning lamp should illuminate. Now, with with the ignition still on, pull the terminal off the stud. The lamp should go out. If it does then the alternator is suspect. If it stays on there is a short to negative on the cable between warning lamp and alternator - this will prevent the machine energising.

On the back mounting bracket of both alternators you will have a sliding bush that might prevent the ACR fitting your mounting points. Although the bushes will slide they can be very stiff so if you need to move one to get it to fit support the bracket (I use a socket) and gently tap the bush back through the bracket a little. Those brackets snap too easily to just whack the bush without support. The bush shoudl just pull through with the bolt once the alternator is mounted.

I think the problem machine may well have the wrong handed fan on it ( Lister alternators being cam shaft driven tend to turn in the opposite direction to "normal"). BIZ or someone will confirm. If I am correct you MUST get the correct fan or a bi-directional fan to prevent you burning out any new alternator. This also applied to the ACR unless it has the correct fan on it.

[hackenbush]

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

Googling 400242 as shown on your 2nd photo brings a link to rmlunits.com alternator part no 100-058, which it says is a 12v 70 A alternator and a replacement for a Lucas  LRA 517.

Sorry, can't do links on this phone.

great, thanks

[Neil Smith]

After testing as Tony suggests and it is the alternator then it might be worth putting in a new regulator, they are cheap and it looks like you have room to do it in situ, just done it on my motor home that had your problem and it's fine now charging at 14.2 volts.

Neil

[hackenbush]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

The first alternator (the all metal one) is a Lucas A127 clone. The old one with the big plastic end cover is a late version of a Lucas ACR. They should be direct swaps EXCEPT the A127 has a nut & stud main terminal while the ACR uses a PAIR of 9mm blades. It is just possible but very unlikely that the second large blade is for battery sensing but I have only seen them on a few MOD applications. If you do swap I would  advise, bodge that it is, that you strip back and split the the main red cable enough to fit 2 x 9mm blades on the end and insulate the lengths of bare conductors. This is because in vehicle use one blade fed the battery while the other fed the car's electrical loads so the full output never went through just one blade.

Before you condemn the newest alternator do just one  extra test. Undo the nut holding the small/thin wire onto the stud but leave the terminal on the stud for now. Turn on the ignition. The warning lamp should illuminate. Now, with with the ignition still on, pull the terminal off the stud. The lamp should go out. If it does then the alternator is suspect. If it stays on there is a short to negative on the cable between warning lamp and alternator - this will prevent the machine energising.

On the back mounting bracket of both alternators you will have a sliding bush that might prevent the ACR fitting your mounting points. Although the bushes will slide they can be very stiff so if you need to move one to get it to fit support the bracket (I use a socket) and gently tap the bush back through the bracket a little. Those brackets snap too easily to just whack the bush without support. The bush shoudl just pull through with the bolt once the alternator is mounted.

I think the problem machine may well have the wrong handed fan on it ( Lister alternators being cam shaft driven tend to turn in the opposite direction to "normal"). BIZ or someone will confirm. If I am correct you MUST get the correct fan or a bi-directional fan to prevent you burning out any new alternator. This also applied to the ACR unless it has the correct fan on it.

OK, thanks. I'm at work now but will go through the procedures you've highlighted as soon as I can and get back to you with updates

Just now, Neil Smith said:

After testing as Tony suggests and it is the alternator then it might be worth putting in a new regulator, they are cheap and it looks like you have room to do it in situ, just done it on my motor home that had your problem and it's fine now charging at 14.2 volts.

Neil

OK, will do