Batteries

[jddevel]

Sort of boat related but I`m curious. With the knowledge I`ve tried to accumulate reading the subject of batteries and particularly their life expectancy  on this forum I would like to ask he question how long are the electric car batteries going to last before requiring renewal and if they have a long life what is the difference.

[mross]

Car batteries will last about 8 years.  They have an easy life compared to a boat's.  They are hardly ever discharged to 50% - only if you leave the lights on!  Starting the engine actually needs very few amp hours.  When the engine is running the battery is constantly being charged and the electrical load is handled by the alternator.

[WotEver]

Nobody knows for sure because they've not been around in large enough numbers for long enough but they're generally expected to be good for at least 10 years and over 100,000 miles. 

The differences? Firstly the battery technology and secondly the fact that they'll be very well charged by a dedicated charging system, probably on a daily basis (because if you don't charge them they don't go!).

7 minutes ago, jddevel said:

how long are the electric car batteries going to last

 

[Robbo]

9 minutes ago, mross said:

Car batteries will last about 8 years.  They have an easy life compared to a boat's.  They are hardly ever discharged to 50% - only if you leave the lights on!  Starting the engine actually needs very few amp hours.  When the engine is running the battery is constantly being charged and the electrical load is handled by the alternator.

You miss read the OP's question regarding electric cars.

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Sort of boat related but I`m curious. With the knowledge I`ve tried to accumulate reading the subject of batteries and particularly their life expectancy  on this forum I would like to ask he question how long are the electric car batteries going to last before requiring renewal and if they have a long life what is the difference.

It would depend on how the batteries are used, if you use the quick 10min charging methods they say then can do then you will serverly reduce there life span.   Like all batteries they the more gental and less DoD you do they last longer.  (Although lithiums don't like to be kept at 100% which is where they differ)

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, mross said:

Car batteries will last about 8 years.  They have an easy life compared to a boat's.  They are hardly ever discharged to 50% - only if you leave the lights on!  Starting the engine actually needs very few amp hours.  When the engine is running the battery is constantly being charged and the electrical load is handled by the alternator.

Electric cars do not have an engine !

[mross]

Yes, I misread the OP as has already been pointed out.

[cuthound]

Toyota warranty their batteries for 100,000 miles (150,000  in California) and claim never to have had a claim for worn out batteries, only manufacturing faults.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-faq.json

http://www.moneycrashers.com/hybrid-cars-pros-cons/

[MtB]

On 19/03/2017 at 09:21, Robbo said:

It would depend on how the batteries are used, if you use the quick 10min charging methods they say then can do then you will serverly reduce there life span.   Like all batteries they the more gental and less DoD you do they last longer.  (Although lithiums don't like to be kept at 100% which is where they differ)

 

Presumably electric cars use lithium batteries (of which there seem to be several sub-types).

So presumably also, they can be charged rapidly  up to 90% (or whatever they prefer) unlike a lead acid battery.

If correct they do seem a suitable candidate for boat use. The complex charge management reqd seems to be the stumbling block, along with the cost.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

... presumably also, they can be charged rapidly up to 90% (or whatever they prefer)...

They can be charged rapidly all the way to 100% and then used. It's sitting around doing nothing at 100% that they're not keen on. 

They also (like LA batts) prefer to be charged slowly if you have the time. Repetitive fast charging will shorten their life. 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Presumably electric cars use lithium batteries (of which there seem to be several sub-types).

So presumably also, they can be charged rapidly  up to 90% (or whatever they prefer) unlike a lead acid battery.

If correct they do seem a suitable candidate for boat use. The complex charge management reqd seems to be the stumbling block, along with the cost.

Yes they can be charged rapidly, but its not recommended as it causes stress on the battery and lowers capacity in the long term.  The same goes for phones that can be rapidly charged as well.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, mross said:

Yes, I misread the OP as has already been pointed out.

Sorry - in the period between starting to type and hitting 'send' I had a phone call.

It had not been pointed out when I started.

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Presumably electric cars use lithium batteries (of which there seem to be several sub-types).

So presumably also, they can be charged rapidly  up to 90% (or whatever they prefer) unlike a lead acid battery.

If correct they do seem a suitable candidate for boat use. The complex charge management reqd seems to be the stumbling block, along with the cost.

The earlier hybrid cars like the original Toyota Prius and Honda Civic used nickel metal hydride  (NiMH) batteries. The latest ones use Lion.

Edited March 19, 2017 by cuthound
Spillung

[MtB]

On 19/03/2017 at 12:12, WotEver said:

They can be charged rapidly all the way to 100% and then used. It's sitting around doing nothing at 100% that they're not keen on. 

They also (like LA batts) prefer to be charged slowly if you have the time. Repetitive fast charging will shorten their life. 

Ah I see. So electric car users still need to plan their charging in advance. For maximum range they can presumably set a departure time on the charger to top up to 100% just before leaving to go somewhere.

[WotEver]

Yeah, more or less. Read this: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/charging-range.html

The "How to charge" section. 

[MtB]

On 19/03/2017 at 12:26, WotEver said:

Yeah, more or less. Read this: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/charging-range.html

The "How to charge" section. 

 

Hmmm interesting. I see it takes a 32A home supply to charge it, so a full charge giving 150 mile range will add about a tenner to one's electricity bill, and none of that goes to the government.

Given enough petrol at the pump to do 150 miles costs more than that, how long before regulations requiring separate metering of domestic car-charging (and taxing) are introduced? 

[cuthound]

19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hmmm interesting. I see it takes a 32A home supply to charge it, so a full charge giving 150 mile range will add about a tenner to one's electricity bill, and none of that goes to the government.

Given enough petrol at the pump to do 150 miles costs more than that, how long before regulations requiring separate metering of domestic car-charging (and taxing) are introduced? 

Or probably an increase in taxation on all domestic electricity. That may explain the government's sudden interest in the big 6 overcharging their customers 

[WotEver]

32 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I see it takes a 32A home supply to charge it

Only for a 7/9 hour 'fast' charge. You can charge from a 13A socket but they don't say how long that would take. 

[cuthound]

54 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hmmm interesting. I see it takes a 32A home supply to charge it, so a full charge giving 150 mile range will add about a tenner to one's electricity bill, and none of that goes to the government.

Given enough petrol at the pump to do 150 miles costs more than that, how long before regulations requiring separate metering of domestic car-charging (and taxing) are introduced? 

According of this website, 

https://speakev.com/threads/real-world-30-kwh-leaf-range-statistics.14901/

It would appear the actual range of a Nissan Leaf is 62-100 miles. Bet the government will use Nissan's over optimistic figures when deciding on a tax rate though.

[jddevel]

I have to smile at the like me cynical contributors to this forum. God it would be hell if we all met in a pub "to put the world to rights". Although having said that perhaps a more optimistic view would develop as consumption went up.

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, jddevel said:

I have to smile at the like me cynical contributors to this forum. God it would be hell if we all met in a pub "to put the world to rights". Although having said that perhaps a more optimistic view would develop as consumption went up.

Its called a " Banter " they are very popular with some members.

[Bewildered]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

I have to smile at the like me cynical contributors to this forum. God it would be hell if we all met in a pub "to put the world to rights". Although having said that perhaps a more optimistic view would develop as consumption went up.

Some say cynical, some say realist; it's just a matter of perspective

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Bewildered said:

Some say cynical, some say realist; it's just a matter of perspective

Said the cynic

[smileypete]

One thing about lithiums is that the prices are falling thanks to volumes going up. So after say 8 to 10 years a replacement pack for a car should cost less than the original.

I guess a good BMS (batt management) for lithiums might bleed off a bit of charge down to 90% to stop them sitting around at 100%, though self discharge will do this eventually.

There's a few people on youtube making homebrew 'power wall' type batts for their solar homes.

Edited March 19, 2017 by smileypete

[Psycloud]

Vanadium Flow Batteries could be the future once economies of scale make them affordable etc.

http://www.nanoflowcell.com/

A 48v cell allegedly can power a car up to 300 Km/h and has a 1000 mile range, suffers no memory effect and can be cycled repeatedly with no loss of capacity.  All this in the size of a suitcase.

Clearly there is some marketing hype involved in the above but the technology does exist in much larger units for storing renewable energy.