Lithium ion batteries

[hounddog]

Worth a punt?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Best-Leisure-LITHIUM-ION-Battery-138Ah-12v-/122372878552

[mross]

9 minutes ago, hounddog said:

Worth a punt?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Best-Leisure-LITHIUM-ION-Battery-138Ah-12v-/122372878552

 

already suggested by Stegra on page 1

[Robbo]

Doing a little research and it looks like RELiON batteries are a good make to go for, they have a BMS built in so can be a drop in replacement by the looks of it.

[MtB]

On 16/03/2017 at 09:57, Robbo said:

Doing a little research and it looks like RELiON batteries are a good make to go for, they have a BMS built in so can be a drop in replacement by the looks of it.

 

Yes it's encouraging to see this discussion forum talking about them and the Relion company joining in the discussion with intelligent contributions:

http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=658064

[Robbo]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes it's encouraging to see this discussion forum talking about them and the Relion company joining in the discussion with intelligent contributions:

http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=658064

I saw that too.   I found a supplier in the UK if anyone is interested; https://www.eurobatt.co.uk/relion-lithium/   If anyone knows any others?

It's a shame they are so expensive to initially buy, even with a cycle rate of around 5000 (50% DoD) they are pretty expensive.   However looking at my quick dodgy sums the overall costs are pretty similar to other battery types (apart from semi/Traction) especially if your main source of charging is via generator.

[Dave_P]

Apologies for the dopey questions but; can I simply buy 3 of these from ebay, whip out my current leisure batteries and plonk them in?  Would i connect them up the same way?  There seems to be a dangly wire coming out of the side?  I charge my batteries off a variety of sources: 70a alternator, 12a cheap Halfords battery charger, 40a sterling charger, 40a mppt solar controller.  Would all these continue to work in the same way with these ebay batteries?

[MtB]

On 16/03/2017 at 11:44, Dave_P said:

Apologies for the dopey questions but; can I simply buy 3 of these from ebay, whip out my current leisure batteries and plonk them in?  Would i connect them up the same way?  There seems to be a dangly wire coming out of the side?  I charge my batteries off a variety of sources: 70a alternator, 12a cheap Halfords battery charger, 40a sterling charger, 40a mppt solar controller.  Would all these continue to work in the same way with these ebay batteries?

 

Well according to the ebay listing, yes!

But the listing also says this:

"These state of the art batteries retail for $2000. So grab yourself a bargain."

With no explanation for why he is able to sell $2,000 batteries for £290, I think there will turn out to be a catch. Could you buy some please, then let us know what it is? Many thanks....

:D

[Dave_P]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

But the listing also says this:

"These state of the art batteries retail for $2000. So grab yourself a bargain."

With no explanation for why he is able to sell $2,000 batteries for £290, 

Because the ad says they're used.

[Robbo]

36 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Apologies for the dopey questions but; can I simply buy 3 of these from ebay, whip out my current leisure batteries and plonk them in?  Would i connect them up the same way?  There seems to be a dangly wire coming out of the side?  I charge my batteries off a variety of sources: 70a alternator, 12a cheap Halfords battery charger, 40a sterling charger, 40a mppt solar controller.  Would all these continue to work in the same way with these ebay batteries?

The cable would be to connect to a BMS (Battery Management System), which would be wise to get.

[Robbo]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well according to the ebay listing, yes!

But the listing also says this:

"These state of the art batteries retail for $2000. So grab yourself a bargain."

With no explanation for why he is able to sell $2,000 batteries for £290, I think there will turn out to be a catch. Could you buy some please, then let us know what it is? Many thanks....

Also the seller has no real history in selling.  

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Because the ad says they're used.

But with less than 60 cycles.   Doesn't smell right, price is too cheap.

[Dave_P]

I've emailled the seller but I'm not even sure whether my questions makes sense:

"Hi,

I'm interested in buying 3 of these batteries to replace the existing lead-acid leisure batteries in my narrowboat. However I need answers to the following;

1. What are the exact dimensions of these batteries?
2. How are these batteries intended to be charged? (I use a combination of solar, 70a engine alternator and 40a mains charger)
3. What is the output voltage of these batteries?
4. Your advert mentions a battery management system but doesn't make it clear whether this is integral to the battery or would have to be bought separately?

Thanks,"

 

 

 

My suspicion is that the seller somehow landed themselves with these batteries and doesn't know too much about them either.  His advert is largely copy&paste

[stegra]

9 minutes ago, Robbo said:

But with less than 60 cycles.   Doesn't smell right, price is too cheap.

I know that they were removed from Sainsbury's delivery vans. I understand that the vans were part of a govt scheme and subsidised. The problem was that the batteries were too heavy meaning that the payload was insufficient. These delivery firms won't go over 3.5 tonnes GVM because the drivers would have to use tachos and limit their hours. The reason they are low priced is because that's realistic price to ask. They've been in eBay a couple of weeks and none have sold so perhaps it's an unrealistic price.

I think this might be the same guy who offered me 20 at £180 each, in which case he's an electrician who came to connect and sign off an install I'd done. He was quite genuine and had a complete electric van for sale as well for about £5k for a 2010 transit.

Not sure that these will charge safely from an alternator. The listing says they'll charge from a standard battery charger but doesn't mention alternator. If it the same guy then he said he'd sold quite a few for campervans which were working without issue. It could be that this seller is someone else, hence the price difference.

[ditchcrawler]

There is a Narrowboat being fitted that has Lithium batteries, they have a blog http://www.oleanna.co.uk/2017/01/bloomin-battery.html so may be worth watching

[Robbo]

Will be interesting to see someone's views who has lithium batteries and has been living with them for a while.

[Jess--]

On 11/03/2017 at 15:07, Mike the Boilerman said:

Interesting to note how heavy they are at 20kg for a 138ah battery. I was under the impression L ion batts were feather light. 

you are probably thinking of lithium polymer batts, they are much lighter... but very unstable and prone to damage

lithium polymer batts that I use in some equipment work out at 90g per Ah (for a 3s / 11.1v pack).
If I were to scale that up to 138Ah it would weigh 12.4kg
it could be safely discharged (if your wiring could take it) at 4100A and charged at approx 300A

however in reality it would be nothing short of a timebomb

[stegra]

I've just spoken to the guy who's advertising the Lithium ion batteries on eBay. He's just picked up another 45 of them. His eBay price is inflated because of the hostile nature of eBay toward its vendors. He'll accept £225 each for them for buyers who collect from Bristol. Upon collection he connects them to a laptop to show how many charging cycles they've had, and offers 30 day exchange in case of issues.

I've no connection with him; he just came to connect and sign off an electrical install I did recently. I've met him several times over the last few years at festivals and nights out because he plays in a band. He seems like a genuine enough person. Here's his advert on Gumtree:

https://www.gumtree.com/p/van-trucks-parts-accessories/lithium-ion-leisure-battery-12.8v-138ah-/1225916149

[Murflynn]

I'm sorely tempted to buy a pair of these, especially as they are local to me, but like Mike I would like to know if they can be charged using a standard MPPT charger (as well as a mains charger, which he says will work).  What are risks of using Li-Ion (we hear stories of them catching fire)?

 

Anybody know?

 

data sheets here.  https://www.valence.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Valence-Module-Range-113016.pdf

the web page says they need a special management module, not mentioned by the seller.  https://www.valence.com/products/battery-management-systems/

[MtB]

Yes I've just seen much the same. According to the manufacturer site these batteries cannot be charged using a LA battery charger, they need the dedicated "BMS system" sold by the battery manufacturer.

This series of products requires the Battery Management System

Our battery modules are energy storage devices that can be configured in a variety of ways to meet the particular requirements of an application. To do so requires a properly configured Valence Battery Management System (BMS) for the system parameters and contactors. Generic or non-Valence BMS units are not suitable for use with Valence batteries. For safety reasoning, configuring of a Valence BMS needs to be performed by Valence or its authorized reseller. We do not support Valence products that have not been purchased directly from Valence or through an approved reseller.

https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

[stegra]

Ok. When I saw him the first time, a few weeks ago, he showed me a Valence web page on his phone with the bit about using lead acid battery chargers. As I understand it, these are probably over five years old so the data sheets might be hard to find. For me personally, they're too big a risk. I'd be spending close to £4k and my concern would be that a single failed battery would either make the whole bank obsolete (at least three more batteries anyway) or cost over £2k to replace. If I only wanted one or two I might be tempted but I agree that it would be nice to know a bit more about charging, particularly MPPT solar. I don't remember seeing any MPPT controllers that include lithium ion as options.

[Murflynn]

in view that the lithium ion batteries I have dismantled (cordless drill) have a printed circuit board attached, and have a 3 wire connection (I assume a common negative, a charging +ve and a supply +ve), and the batteries on offer appear to have no such attachment, it seems likely that a control board is necessary. 

 

I found this on another website, which suggests these batteries are not as foolproof as has been suggested in various places.

Basic technical specification

Nominal voltage of the cell is 3.2 V
Operational voltage is 2.5 - 3.8 V 
The maximum charging voltage for initial charge is 4 V. 
Recommended subsequent charging is to 3.8 V. Cell may be destroyed when continued to be charged above this voltage.
Cell balancing voltage 3.65V. This is the recommended charge voltage for most applications.
Save discharge voltage 2.8V. It is suggested to stop discharge when this voltage level is reached.
The minimum voltage is 2.5V. The cell may be destroyed when voltage drops bellow this voltage.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Murflynn

[MtB]

2 hours ago, stegra said:

Ok. When I saw him the first time, a few weeks ago, he showed me a Valence web page on his phone with the bit about using lead acid battery chargers. As I understand it, these are probably over five years old so the data sheets might be hard to find. For me personally, they're too big a risk. I'd be spending close to £4k and my concern would be that a single failed battery would either make the whole bank obsolete (at least three more batteries anyway) or cost over £2k to replace. If I only wanted one or two I might be tempted but I agree that it would be nice to know a bit more about charging, particularly MPPT solar. I don't remember seeing any MPPT controllers that include lithium ion as options.

 

Understatement of the decade.

How to charge the batteries is the beginning and the end of the story. With no viable charger there will be no energy storage.

Waste of money. No wonder they are so cheap.