Victron Charger Poorly or Dead ?

[Alan de Enfield]

Victron Phoenix, Battery Charger 12v / 50a

Was working fine last time used (about 12 months ago)

Solar and engines have kept batteries topped up for the last 12 months.

Problem :

LEDs not lighting up.

Checked input, and 240v arriving at Charger input terminals.

'Output voltage' registers the same as the batteries ( which are being charged by solar and at 14.5v)

Disconnected charger from batteries and removed from boat.

Removed all leads (temperature adjustment cables, Battery 1 leads, battery 2 leads, Starter Battery 'trickle charge' leads and mains lead).

Re-wired with mains input and just a single 'battery 1' lead (not connected to a battery) and output = 11.25v

Any suggestions as to :

1) Any further tests

2) Likely problem

3) Suggestions for 'mending it' (DIY or send away ?)

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Victron Phoenix, Battery Charger 12v / 50a

Was working fine last time used (about 12 months ago)

Solar and engines have kept batteries topped up for the last 12 months.

Problem :

LEDs not lighting up.

Checked input, and 240v arriving at Charger input terminals.

'Output voltage' registers the same as the batteries ( which are being charged by solar and at 14.5v)

Disconnected charger from batteries and removed from boat.

Removed all leads (temperature adjustment cables, Battery 1 leads, battery 2 leads, Starter Battery 'trickle charge' leads and mains lead).

Re-wired with mains input and just a single 'battery 1' lead (not connected to a battery) and output = 11.25v

Any suggestions as to :

1) Any further tests

2) Likely problem

3) Suggestions for 'mending it' (DIY or send away ?)

3) internal fuse?

[Robbo]

The manual troubleshooting would suggest a "input fuse".   Although it does say return to dealer as input fuse is faulty so you may need to trace it on the board.   I'm gussing it will be one of those glass type fuses.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Phoenix-Charger.pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

internal fuse?

 

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

The manual troubleshooting would suggest a "input fuse".  

Yes - I saw that in the manual - and that it was a 'dealer repair'. I looked for it, however it is not on the 'top-side' of the PCB and I wondered if there was any other possibilities before removing the board from the 'box'.

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - I saw that in the manual - and that it was a 'dealer repair'. I looked for it, however it is not on the 'top-side' of the PCB and I wondered if there was any other possibilities before removing the board from the 'box'.

Looking at the manual the input fuse is a "15 AT 6.3 x 32 mm", so it's one of those glass types.  You seemed to have covered everything else.

[WotEver]

It could be (just a guess) a surface mount fuse like this: https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/non-resettable-surface-mount-fuses/7546310/

If it is, that might explain why they say 'dealer repair'. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Update :

Removed PCB and found 'input' fuse.

Tested fuse and no continuity so assume 'blown' (but how is the charger then producing 11.25v 'output' ?)

Spoke with a UK Victron  Distributor (technical dept.) and whilst they don't do repairs themselves (they have to send them back to the Netherlands) we talked thru the problem and he suggested I had done all that he could have done. Ended up with the suggestion that I source, and replace, the fuse, plug it in and see what happens - worst case will be fuse 'blows' again and I am no worse off than now, best case, fuse sorts out the problem and I've saved "£100's" in shipping and repair costs.

5 Fuses ordered off ebay (£1.15 + £0.80 P&P) await delivery Friday / Saturday.

 

Edit : we discussed why it was a 'dealer repair' and he suggested that it was purely to stop people who didn't know what they were doing from electrocuting themselves, as you needed to remove the PCB from the case and there would be all sorts of 'live' wires (if it was left plugged in and switched on)

Edited March 8, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Chewbacka]

47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

.............................Edit : we discussed why it was a 'dealer repair' and he suggested that it was purely to stop people who didn't know what they were doing from electrocuting themselves, as you needed to remove the PCB from the case and there would be all sorts of 'live' wires (if it was left plugged in and switched on)

Manufacturer's are getting more and more concerned about product liability claims and so are never going to tell you to open the box, hence anything internal becomes dealer repair, or if low cost, throw it away and buy a new one.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Chewbacka

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Tested fuse and no continuity so assume 'blown' (but how is the charger then producing 11.25v 'output' ?)

It isn't. You were reading the voltage of the connected battery

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It isn't. You were reading the voltage of the connected battery

When I read it WITH the battery connected is was showing 14.7 volts (the solar was connected)

When I disconnected the charger from the batteries it showed the 11.25v output when connected to the 'mains'.

The 'tech department' says it will still register a voltage without the batteries as it goes thru' it series of self-test before it settles at the 'float' voltage.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

Ahh, I misread that you connected it up to a single battery. In that case it was probably just the output capacitors holding their charge. You'd have seen that voltage even without it plugged in if that was the case. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Ahh, I misread that you connected it up to a single battery. In that case it was probably just the output capacitors holding their charge. You'd have seen that voltage even without it plugged in if that was the case. 

Just checked the output voltage no battery connected and not 'plugged in' - Output voltage 0.0v, but, I'm guessing if it was the capacitors than they have discharged by continuous 'poking about'.

 

Hopefully will have more to report after installation of a new fuse.

[Alan de Enfield]

Electronics experts where are you ?

Electrics I can manage but electronics and 'black boxes are a mystery.

New input fuses arrived and installed - absolutely no change, still no LEDs 'lit', only output is 11.25v.

 

Re-read manual and it could be the 'out-put' fuses (even tho' the 'failure' LED is not lit). Removed all 4 output fuses and checked continuity - all OK. Replaced fuses and no difference.

Replaced the 4x 20a fuses with new fuses, no difference.

 

With the output fuses removed I checked for voltage at the 'input side' - result - 13.5 volts

Inserted fuses and checked the output side of the fuse - 11.25v

Checked the 'input side' and 11.25v

It look as if something downstream is dragging the voltage down from 13.5v to 11.25.

 

Reconnected the charger to a 12v battery (voltage at 12.6v) and reading at charger output terminals 12.6v (ie picking up the battery voltage)

 

It appears to make no difference if the charger is switched on to 'standby' (off) or 'charge'

Copy of manual below :

 

Any ideas ?

Is it a 'back to manufacturer' job ?

Phoenix Owners Manual.pdf

[mross]

Is it worth trying a 'factory reset'?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, mross said:

Is it worth trying a 'factory reset'?

Good suggestion - tried it - no effect.

The on/off switch doesn't seem to be doing anything so not sure it has actually done the reset.

(SWMBO suggested "dirt in the carburettor' which is her usual suggestion when anything breaks down)

[mross]

I'd be taking the covers off and looking for damage.  Any any more fuses or overloads. 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, mross said:

I'd be taking the covers off and looking for damage.  Any any more fuses or overloads. 

Absolutely :

No additional fuses

No 'black marks'

No Burns

No 'nasty smell'

No sign of damage.

(Appreciate your suggestions as I am running out of options)

[mross]

Mastervolts have a resettable thermal cut out so I was hoping you'd find one.  Bummer.  Have you had a quote yet for a repair?  I see a new unit is about £600.  Yikes!

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, mross said:

Mastervolts have a resettable thermal cut out so I was hoping you'd find one.  Bummer.  Have you had a quote yet for a repair?  I see a new unit is about £600.  Yikes!

I was awaiting the arrival of the master 'input' fuse (which arrived today).

Now knowing that it still doesn't work I can call them on Monday for an 'estimate' - but - I guess it will be 'we don't know until we have found out the problem'.

 

The UK dealers don't 'do' repairs, they have to send it to Holland, so, at a minimum I have freight to the UK dealer, then freight from UK to Holland, then whatever 'labour rate' to investigate the problem, and then if repairable - labour / parts to sort the problems and then 2x shipping costs to get it back.

Almost makes me think I could (should) by a cheapo Sterling,(£350) or even a Chinese copy.

[mross]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STERLING-PRO-CHARGE-ULTRA-12V-60A-BATTERY-CHARGER-PCU1260-/262885185134?hash=item3d352d966e:g:UeMAAOSw2xRYScZ7

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by mross

[WotEver]

I'm doing electronics (albeit basic analogue stuff) right now - rebuilding a Quad 303 amp, and my semi-professional opinion (I haven't been employed in electronics since 1975) is that it's broken. 

Back to the mfr unless you can find a schematic and a friendly local electronics guy.

Sorry,

Tony 

[pearley]

http://www.industrialelectronicrepairs.co.uk/

Might be a lot cheaper than going to Victron

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

I'm doing electronics (albeit basic analogue stuff) right now - rebuilding a Quad 303 amp, and my semi-professional opinion (I haven't been employed in electronics since 1975) is that it's broken. 

Back to the mfr unless you can find a schematic and a friendly local electronics guy.

Sorry,

Tony 

I know you are doing it for the challenge, but IAG (Quad) do a fixed price repair of £48 +parts and vat per unit. Just had my 34/405 serviced by them it was like welcoming back an old friend when I ran them up today, both units had most of the caps replaced makes a huge difference to the sound.

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I know you are doing it for the challenge, but IAG (Quad) do a fixed price repair of £48 +parts and vat per unit. Just had my 34/405 serviced by them it was like welcoming back an old friend when I ran them up today, both units had most of the caps replaced makes a huge difference to the sound.

I know what you mean

I've already replaced all the caps and the psu cabling (€40 for the lot from DaDa) but one of the driver boards has a fault. Rather than try and fault find I've bought all new semiconductors for that channel including the power transistors from Farnell for £28. I'll have enough left over to do another board at some time in the future if I need to. 

In fact I have another (water damaged) 303 in storage somewhere so I might dig it out and see if I can bring it back to life

[Giant]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Electronics experts where are you ?

Electrics I can manage but electronics and 'black boxes are a mystery.

Here, but we don't have much more to go on than you do - without a schematic or even the PCB to look at, a black box is a black box. Could you post photos of both sides of the PCB?

A few thoughts, without sight of the board:

Something must have caused that input fuse to blow in the first place. The goal should be to track down what.

So first question: is it still blowing fuses? You've replaced the input fuse and powered it up, now take that new fuse out again and check if it's been blown.

If the new input fuse has blown, then something is still more-or-less shorting out, and the strategy is to find that low-resistance path.

If it hasn't, then something did fail and briefly drew a high current in the process, but has now burned itself out such that it no longer shorts -- but presumably no longer functions either. The strategy then is to identify what blew, either by visual signs of failure (which you've drawn a blank on so far) or by detecting a lack of function.

Whatever it is, I would expect it to be within the mains side of the circuit, because a fault on the low voltage side would have to pull at least 3.6kW through the transformer to blow the mains input fuse and you'd expect something else to have obviously gone bang in that case.

The most obvious candidate would be an electrolytic capacitor. Often the first things to fail in any electronics, but particularly common on the ones that are exposed to mains voltage, especially if ever exposed to spiky supplies.

Look for any signs of bulging in the ends of capacitors.