Electric Engines

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Having read this thread my views are changing as to the viability of electric propulsion. In my research I have come across the latest offering from mercedes and it looks very promising. I dont do attachments but those of you interested in just how far we have already come look at the " Mercedes aa class " on you tube, deffo worth thinking about.

If you want speed how about this 

 

[ditchcrawler]

On 10/03/2017 at 10:09, Mike the Boilerman said:

Shipping guzzles the stuff too. I suspect shipping and aviation fuel consumption dwarfs that of cars and lorries.

Dont ships still burn the dirty stuff?

[ditchcrawler]

On 08/03/2017 at 13:34, Murflynn said:

what is the relevance of a picture of a boat with a nominal 2kW PV array?  that boat won't get far without a diesel engine back-up.

The web site does say it has a genny, but the paper adds just say "Solar Powered" and "her uniquely large solar array charges batteies that drive her powerful electric motor"

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes true they have realy caught on. In 2013 0.16% of uk new cars where plug in electric cars  Theres nowt wrong with electric motors they are quiet, powerful and quite small. The only problem with them is the pollution caused in charging whatever charging way you use to fill up the batteries or the fact you have to run an internal combustion engine along side them to make them work. And you a Jag man knows a v8 petrol is soooooooooooo much nicer than a hummy lectric motor 

Well in a way you are right but electric cars have a chance of using clean energy whereas diesels/petrols are all fossil fuel users, You need to have a go in a Tesla they are awesome just no nice sountrack

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

I suspect the information is ripped off from the automotive world and not well understood by the "author". 

"The diesel unit could be smaller than conventional narrowboat engines because the electric drive acts as an efficient torque converter."

Yes, electric drive does act as a torque converter but that is irrelevant  to boat use where a torque converter is of no use and the propellor is a bloody good one anyway. The engine can be smaller simply because it doesn't need to develop the full power needed for short bursts for instance to stop in a hurry. Regardless of any other consideration diesel electric drive is and forever will be wasteful of fuel.

I'm neither pro nor anti electric motors merely curious. Since the conversion of one form of energy to another inevitably leads to energy loss, if only in heat, then with, from what I can see three energy conversions there must be a significant energy loss. If we start with the diesel fuel consumed to feed the motor powering the generator (I wouldn't have petrol on the boat) which, shall we say has a 45% efficency converting the fuel to mechanical energy so we have lost 55% of the energy at the outset.The rotational energy is then used to power the alternator/generator from which we will lose a further percentage of the energy (let us say 40%) which reduces us to 27% of the initial energy of the source fuel. Finally there is once again the conversion of energy from the power stored in the battery then used to power the electric motor, I understand that this is quite efficient so let us only lose 20% which, if my maths is there or thereabouts, leaves us with about 21.6% of the original source energy, so we've lost nearly 80% of the source energy. There will then be energy loss in the drive to the propeller but that will be much the same whatever method is used so can be disregarded.  I fully understand that with a road vehicle energy can be recovered from the braking system which will increase energy efficiency, that isn't an option on a boat.

Now my understanding of batteries is a bit simplistic, but believe that the more that you take out of a battery system, the longer it is going to take you to put the power back. If we are talking about a bank of 20 batteries, with the best will in the world, it is going to take a while to recharge since I don't think you can force the rate of charge without 'frying' the batteries. Having as large bank of solar panels will clearly help enormously but, and here is the crux, during the season let us say I travel 6 hours a day (3 before lunch and 3 after) finishing travelling at, say 6pm. With only 3 hours of decent sunlight left to power the panels are they going to fully recharge the batteries before the next days travel? Do i have to run the generator throughout the day whilst travelling to keep the batteries topped up? or do i just run it for the 2 hours permitted between 6pm and 8pm? if I'm only going to use a relatively small amount of electric, why do I need a large bank of batteries?

 

ETA Looking back on it there are actually 4 energy conversions since I forgot that there will be the loss from the energy from the alternator to the battery and again from the battery to the motor (the battery warms up when being charged and the electric motor warms up in use, both are 'waste' heat energy).

Edited March 12, 2017 by Wanderer Vagabond

[peterboat]

Here is an extract from the EBA magazine [its online] things are changing whether we like it or not worldwide electric boats are gathering pace how long before we have to follow suit

Electric Boats - the Potential near You

Alongside the electric car, electric and hybrid electric boats are making a steady  and silent progress around the world. The German electric marine engine manufacturer Torqeedo has recently announced a total sales of 140,000 units, while the Californian boatbuilder Duffy has now sold over 40,000 electric boats worldwide. With inboards and outboards, nearly one quarter of a million electric boats are in private and public use.  Regular electric ferryboat services are in operation in seven French cities, 35 tourist boats in Amsterdam, Stockholm, Berlin, Venice, Sydney, Hong Kong, Kerala (India), Valdivia (Chile) and Chobe (Botswana) and even the Galapagos Islands. By 2020 only electric boats will be permitted on the Amsterdam canals and the Swiss lakes. Since the 1980's, the Electric Boat Association has been one of the main pioneers of electric boating - and to continue that impetus, there is still much to be done around the lakes, canals and rivers of the British Isles. We should like to invite you as a EBA member to help in this, by please forwarding this message to those who organise the transport and the environment in your locality, providing them with the website address of the EBA.

From our Chairman Jeff Hide with thanks for the international statistics to Kevin Desmond at home in France

[stegra]

7 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm neither pro nor anti electric motors merely curious. Since the conversion of one form of energy to another inevitably leads to energy loss, if only in heat, then with, from what I can see three energy conversions there must be a significant energy loss. If we start with the diesel fuel consumed to feed the motor powering the generator (I wouldn't have petrol on the boat) which, shall we say has a 45% efficency converting the fuel to mechanical energy so we have lost 55% of the energy at the outset.The rotational energy is then used to power the alternator/generator from which we will lose a further percentage of the energy (let us say 40%) which reduces us to 27% of the initial energy of the source fuel. Finally there is once again the conversion of energy from the power stored in the battery then used to power the electric motor, I understand that this is quite efficient so let us only lose 20% which, if my maths is there or thereabouts, leaves us with about 21.6% of the original source energy, so we've lost nearly 80% of the source energy. There will then be energy loss in the drive to the propeller but that will be much the same whatever method is used so can be disregarded.  I fully understand that with a road vehicle energy can be recovered from the braking system which will increase energy efficiency, that isn't an option on a boat.

Now my understanding of batteries is a bit simplistic, but believe that the more that you take out of a battery system, the longer it is going to take you to put the power back. If we are talking about a bank of 20 batteries, with the best will in the world, it is going to take a while to recharge since I don't think you can force the rate of charge without 'frying' the batteries. Having as large bank of solar panels will clearly help enormously but, and here is the crux, during the season let us say I travel 6 hours a day (3 before lunch and 3 after) finishing travelling at, say 6pm. With only 3 hours of decent sunlight left to power the panels are they going to fully recharge the batteries before the next days travel? Do i have to run the generator throughout the day whilst travelling to keep the batteries topped up? or do i just run it for the 2 hours permitted between 6pm and 8pm? if I'm only going to use a relatively small amount of electric, why do I need a large bank of batteries?

 

ETA Looking back on it there are actually 4 energy conversions since I forgot that there will be the loss from the energy from the alternator to the battery and again from the battery to the motor (the battery warms up when being charged and the electric motor warms up in use, both are 'waste' heat energy).

No account taken for the modern diesel generator likely being at least twice as efficient as an old boat engine even when the engine is running at its optimum speed/torque, which most of the time it won't be. Nor can the engine be switched off for extended periods of cruising when very little power is required to maintain momentum.

[cuthound]

10 hours ago, peterboat said:

Well in a way you are right but electric cars have a chance of using clean energy whereas diesels/petrols are all fossil fuel users, You need to have a go in a Tesla they are awesome just no nice sountrack

Don't forget that making an electric car uses far more energy, particularly in electric motor and battery manufacturers.  Both use less far common metals than iron ore and aluminium. 

I think electric cars will be a footnote in the history of cars. The future will be cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells  (but they have been telling us that these are close to economic production for the last 45 years or so) 

[Robbo]

14 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Don't forget that making an electric car uses far more energy, particularly in electric motor and battery manufacturers.  Both use less far common metals than iron ore and aluminium. 

I think electric cars will be a footnote in the history of cars. The future will be cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells  (but they have been telling us that these are close to economic production for the last 45 years or so) 

Isn't an Hydrogen fuel cell car an electric car!

I think when people/government realise that Nuclear Power has to be an option and ramped up to replace oil based fuel in the near future then the hydrogen fuel cell will be more common.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Robbo

[cuthound]

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Isn't an Hydrogen fuel cell car an electric car!

I think when people/government realise that Nuclear Power has to be an option and ramped up to replace oil based fuel in the near future then the hydrogen fuel cell will be more common.

True, but a fuel cell can make electricity from a wide range of portable fuels, (lpg, petrol, diesel etc) so is not dependent upon being plugged into the mains for recharging,  and thus has a large range.

Another option for an electric car is to use an aluminium/air battery. These have a wide range  (200-300 miles) and are 95% recyclable, but dissolve their plates in the discharge process, so only viable if using standard batteries designed for rapid replacement, and a network of battery replacement centre will need to be developed.

[Robbo]

Just now, cuthound said:

True, but a fuel cell can make electricity from a wide range of portable fuels, (lpg, petrol, diesel etc) so is not dependent upon being plugged into the mains for recharging,  and thus has a large range.

Another option for an electric car is to use an aluminium/air battery. These have a wide range  (200-300 miles) and are 95% recyclable, but dissolve their plates in the discharge process, so only viable if using standard batteries designed for rapid replacement, and a network of battery replacement centre will need to be developed.

I'm not disagreeing that hydrogen is the "future" fuel as I believe it will be.  It's just that the electric car will be here to stay for along time, but the source of that (direct) fuel may change to whatever the best mobile storage medium may be whether that be Hydrogen, super capacitors or batteries.   However I do believe the source of the electric will have to be mainly nuclear (hopefully fusion) based.

[bizzard]

The Ford Fusion has been around for some time.

[bizzard]

Clockwork cars will be the future, excellent exercise winding them up. You would have to plan your routes carefully though with Ordnance Survey maps, which take in contours and gradients ''Satnavs'' won't be of much use. As clockwork motors springs give their maximum power at the beginning of the run and gradually lose power throughout their duration and so give least power towards the end of the run. Because of this the maps have to be consulted before your trip to include the steepest hills at the very beginning of the run, gradually diminishing until you have a final downhill run to your destination. Planning is all important or you can be caught out, slowly grind to a halt and spend ages winding it up, by which time the pub or shops might be closed or your late for work. As clockwork cars become numerous little huts like sentry boxes could be set up along the roadside, these huts would contain ''Winders'' little chaps with huge strong Popeye winding arms willing to wind up your car for a small fee while you take a nice stroll. They would carry their own keys and would carry spares to sell to folk who've gone and lost theirs. Also as time goes by the ''Winders'' will 'as well as keys' stock a range of spare springs for those motorists who bust them through over winding and will become proficient in fitting them. Like automatically winding watches Automatic winding car clockwork motors will become the norm. These will involve a heavy weight which flies back and forth under the car to wind the spring. This will mean continually zigzagging the car along to keep the weight in motion. All roads will eventually be altered to a zigzag profile to provide this. The automatic winding motors will make the roadside Winders and their huts redundant though. 

Tri-ang Minic will make a comeback.

Edited March 13, 2017 by bizzard

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Clockwork cars will be the future, excellent exercise winding them up. You would have to plan your routes carefully though with Ordnance Survey maps, which take in contours and gradients ''Satnavs'' won't be of much use. As clockwork motors springs give their maximum power at the beginning of the run and gradually lose power throughout their duration and so give least power towards the end of the run. Because of this the maps have to be consulted before your trip to include the steepest hills at the very beginning of the run, gradually diminishing until you have a final downhill run to your destination. Planning is all important or you can be caught out, slowly grind to a halt and spend ages winding it up, by which time the pub or shops might be closed or your late for work. As clockwork cars become numerous little huts like sentry boxes could be set up along the roadside, these huts would contain ''Winders'' little chaps with huge strong Popeye winding arms willing to wind up your car for a small fee while you take a nice stroll. They would carry their own keys and would carry spares to sell to folk who've gone and lost theirs. Also as time goes by the ''Winders'' will 'as well as keys' stock a range of spare springs for those motorists who bust them through over winding and will become proficient in fitting them. Like automatically winding watches Automatic winding car clockwork motors will become the norm. These will involve a heavy weight which flies back and forth under the car to wind the spring. This will mean continually zigzagging the car along to keep the weight in motion. All roads will eventually be altered to a zigzag profile to provide this. The automatic winding motors will make the roadside Winders and their huts redundant though. 

Tri-ang Minic will make a comeback.

Bizz.....you have finaly lost it 

[bizzard]

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Bizz.....you have finaly lost it 

No I've not.

[bizzard]

[MtB]

On 13/03/2017 at 10:11, bizzard said:

Clockwork cars will be the future, excellent exercise winding them up. You would have to plan your routes carefully though with Ordnance Survey maps, which take in contours and gradients ''Satnavs'' won't be of much use. As clockwork motors springs give their maximum power at the beginning of the run and gradually lose power throughout their duration and so give least power towards the end of the run. Because of this the maps have to be consulted before your trip to include the steepest hills at the very beginning of the run, gradually diminishing until you have a final downhill run to your destination. Planning is all important or you can be caught out, slowly grind to a halt and spend ages winding it up, by which time the pub or shops might be closed or your late for work. As clockwork cars become numerous little huts like sentry boxes could be set up along the roadside, these huts would contain ''Winders'' little chaps with huge strong Popeye winding arms willing to wind up your car for a small fee while you take a nice stroll. They would carry their own keys and would carry spares to sell to folk who've gone and lost theirs. Also as time goes by the ''Winders'' will 'as well as keys' stock a range of spare springs for those motorists who bust them through over winding and will become proficient in fitting them. Like automatically winding watches Automatic winding car clockwork motors will become the norm. These will involve a heavy weight which flies back and forth under the car to wind the spring. This will mean continually zigzagging the car along to keep the weight in motion. All roads will eventually be altered to a zigzag profile to provide this. The automatic winding motors will make the roadside Winders and their huts redundant though. 

Tri-ang Minic will make a comeback.

 

Never mind planning for the hills, there is already a network of routes with only the occasional short gradient, usually only rising 10 feet or so before the next level run. 

So never mind cycle tracks, I predict in 30 years all the canal towpaths will be six lane motorways when Bizzard's clockwork car has made him a multi-billionaiire.

[nb Innisfree]

39 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Clockwork cars will be the future, excellent exercise winding them up. You would have to plan your routes carefully though with Ordnance Survey maps, which take in contours and gradients ''Satnavs'' won't be of much use. As clockwork motors springs give their maximum power at the beginning of the run and gradually lose power throughout their duration and so give least power towards the end of the run. Because of this the maps have to be consulted before your trip to include the steepest hills at the very beginning of the run, gradually diminishing until you have a final downhill run to your destination. Planning is all important or you can be caught out, slowly grind to a halt and spend ages winding it up, by which time the pub or shops might be closed or your late for work. As clockwork cars become numerous little huts like sentry boxes could be set up along the roadside, these huts would contain ''Winders'' little chaps with huge strong Popeye winding arms willing to wind up your car for a small fee while you take a nice stroll. They would carry their own keys and would carry spares to sell to folk who've gone and lost theirs. Also as time goes by the ''Winders'' will 'as well as keys' stock a range of spare springs for those motorists who bust them through over winding and will become proficient in fitting them. Like automatically winding watches Automatic winding car clockwork motors will become the norm. These will involve a heavy weight which flies back and forth under the car to wind the spring. This will mean continually zigzagging the car along to keep the weight in motion. All roads will eventually be altered to a zigzag profile to provide this. The automatic winding motors will make the roadside Winders and their huts redundant though. 

Tri-ang Minic will make a comeback.

Good opportunities for unemployed lock wheelers, they are very good at winding folk up. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, stegra said:

No account taken for the modern diesel generator likely being at least twice as efficient as an old boat engine even when the engine is running at its optimum speed/torque, which most of the time it won't be. Nor can the engine be switched off for extended periods of cruising when very little power is required to maintain momentum.

If you are talking about 'proper' old boat engines (Bolinder, Russel Newbery,Gardner, et al) then I can't disagree with the efficiency but then that isn't the reason people have such engines. I'm not sure that I can see the modern diesel generator being so much more efficient than a modern diesel engine though. They both generate a lot of waste heat that needs to be dumped (via cooling systems of one sort or another) which is where the wasted energy goes.

You'll need to explain to me how I can switch the electric motor off,"... for extended periods of cruising when very little power is required to maintain momentum...." since I really don't get that. If I stop powering the boat, it will immediately start to slow down and, unless I fit a large butty style rudder, I'm going to have pretty much no steerage. That argument works for electric cars but there isn't really much comparison with a boat.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Wanderer Vagabond

[stegra]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

If you are talking about 'proper' old boat engines (Bolinder, Russel Newbery,Gardner, et al) then I can't disagree with the efficiency but then that isn't the reason people have such engines. I'm not sure that I can see the modern diesel generator being so much more efficient than a modern diesel engine though. They both generate a lot of waste heat that needs to be dumped (via cooling systems of one sort or another) which is where the wasted energy goes.

You'll need to explain to me how I can switch the electric motor off,"... for extended periods of cruising when very little power is required to maintain momentum...." since I really don't get that. If I stop powering the boat, it will immediately start to slow down and, unless I fit a large butty style rudder, I'm going to have pretty much no steerage. That argument works for electric cars but there isn't really much comparison with a boat.

It's not the electric motor that can be switched off, it's the diesel generator. Assuming an appropriately sized battery bank and generator, the generator will only need to run periodically to charge the batteries. If properly sized, it can do this close to its peak efficiency. It's a bit like a compressor with its holding tank, if that makes it easier to relate to.

As well as this, the batteries can be cheaply charged overnight on surplus national grid generation that can't be 'switched off' and solar can contribute in good light. A decent sized battery bank with 'normal' cruising may need very little generator use, especially on obstacle-free stretches with little flow.

I've no interest in trying to convert anyone to the cause. I think the chugging of the engines sounds really nice. But from the first planning of my boat I decided that I wasn't going to be tied to 'heritage' and so try to look at each aspect from its merits as they relate to me. I'm the type that likes to plough his own furrow and it may be that I'm trying to churn up tarmac but if that's the case, it'll be a lesson for next time.

Edited March 13, 2017 by stegra
Add last paragraph

[mross]

Can someone who actually owns an "electric boat" tell us how well it works, how often and for how long they run the engine and how long it takes to recharge from max DoD to 100% SoC using shore power?  When I win the lottery I will buy an electric boat.

[bizzard]

One of these will circumnavigate a paddling pool in the park with joyful grace and majesty for a great number of times with two U2 batteries before they go flat.

[bizzard]

In actual fact for the cost of four NeverReady U2 batteries one could lash one of the above boats onto each foot and go whizzing along the waterways standing up.

[bizzard]

The main problem with ''Standing up electric boating'' is of course steering, steering precisely so as not to keep clouting the bank.  First of all make sure the batteries in each boat are new so that they should be of equal power. Set both rudders straight ahead. If you wish to turn left lift your left heel up so that that boats prop on that foot is out of the water then drag that toe in the water to cause resistance on that side. This should put you into a nice graceful sweeping left turn turn. Do the same with the right foot for turning right.  Once you've become proficient at it you will be able to glide along accurately with great aplomb even with your hands in your pockets.  This could become an Olympic sport.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

One of these will circumnavigate a paddling pool in the park with joyful grace and majesty for a great number of times with two U2 batteries before they go flat.

I had one of those for my 7th birthday!  I loved it.