New Batteries for a Battery Killer?

[Naughty Cal]

Just now, Neil2 said:

Boat owners are a funny lot aren't they.  I doubt there's much in it between cheap and expensive batteries when you look at life expectancy versus cost, I reckon 50-60p a week per battery would cover it whichever option you choose. When you consider the overall cost of boat ownership it's neither here nor there.  That's why I don't consider it worth throwing money at battery management.     

FWIW I do find WAFI one of the more unpleasant of acronyms.  Who was it said boats are like whisky - all are good.

Usually very accurate though unfortunately 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

We are talking about our 6hp 4 stroke Mariner outboard which does a very effective job of shunting NC around in tight spaces and shallow water and got us safely to a mooring a couple of miles away when we managed to get a builders sack wrapped around and between the props.

mmm thought so.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Saw some super heavy batteries at mole valley farmers. looked to be off a tractor.

[Naughty Cal]

17 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

mmm thought so.

It does the trick. Lets not forget NC only weighs 2400kg!

[system 4-50]

54 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 Who was it said boats are like whisky - all are good, provided they don't have too much water in them?

 

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

 

All boats are good, shame about some of the owners

Edited March 8, 2017 by rusty69

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

    

FWIW I do find WAFI one of the more unpleasant of acronyms.  Who was it said boats are like whisky - all are good.

What's the problem ?

WAFI Mall is Dubai's best shopping mall for luxury shopping at affordable prices. With over 350 shops, more than 30 restaurants, and it's very own leisure complex, WAFI is the perfect place to take in the splendour of Dubai.

In the Souk Khan Murjan you'll also find 150 shops and vendors from across the Arab world.

Influenced by many architectural styles, from Egyptian to Turkish, the mall is dominated by its modern interpretation of the Pharaohs, whose epic splendour is conveyed through exquisite stained glass, intricate mosaics, carvings and sculptures.

The mall is run by the WAFI Group, founded in 1973 and best known for WAFI Mall. The group also runs a host of top-class property management, hospitality, manufacturing, transportation, and service companies.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well just for balance I am of the opposite opinion. 2 sets of cheapo leisure batteries, each of which struggled to last 2 seasons of leisure use, boat on shore power when not in use. Now have a set of Trojans into their 4th year and showing no signs of capacity loss.

 

This is it though, innit!

Who here is living aboard with no shoreline, and finding their Trojans last four years+?

No-one I suspect, apart from possibly DMR who has equalisation facilities/gear not available for sale on the general market.

[Neil2]

25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is it though, innit!

Who here is living aboard with no shoreline, and finding their Trojans last four years+?

No-one I suspect, apart from possibly DMR who has equalisation facilities/gear not available for sale on the general market.

This is why Nigel Calder concluded that for most boaters AGM/Gel batteries would be a better choice. (though I haven't seen what he says in the latest edition of his book) His view is the vast majority of us just don't have the equipment/regime to get all the potential out of wet cell batteries so we would probably be better off with the sealed type that recharge faster, even if they don't have the theoretical longevity of wet cells.  However, Calder changed his opinion when the cost of sealed batteries became competitive with wet cells in the US - I don't know whether the same applies in the UK, the last time I looked AGM batteries were quite a bit more expensive.   

Must admit though I'm happy with Trojans it would be nice to cross one maintenance task off the list so I'll be looking at the options when the time comes.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

This is why Nigel Calder concluded that for most boaters AGM/Gel batteries would be a better choice.

 

So which was it he recommended then?

AGM and gel are two different types of battery IIRC, with different advantages and drawbacks.

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is it though, innit!

Who here is living aboard with no shoreline, and finding their Trojans last four years+?

No-one I suspect, apart from possibly DMR who has equalisation facilities/gear not available for sale on the general market.

I certainly couldn't make a set of Trojans do better than three years, cruising all summer and on a shoreline in the winter. The Mastervolt combi is a sod to push into equalisation so never did it, though lavished care on them in all other ways. After three years they were comprehensively, mega-gassing trashed, fit to coddle eggs on when charging with the shoreline. I'm now a devotee of el cheapo, sealed, fit and forget boxes.

[nicknorman]

19 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

I certainly couldn't make a set of Trojans do better than three years, cruising all summer and on a shoreline in the winter. The Mastervolt combi is a sod to push into equalisation so never did it, though lavished care on them in all other ways. After three years they were comprehensively, mega-gassing trashed, fit to coddle eggs on when charging with the shoreline. I'm now a devotee of el cheapo, sealed, fit and forget boxes.

Yes the Mastervolt Combi's eq function has a mind of its own, I never use it. I just wind up the bulk and absorb voltages via the interface panel (or could do it via a PC).

[mrsmelly]

23 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

I certainly couldn't make a set of Trojans do better than three years, cruising all summer and on a shoreline in the winter. The Mastervolt combi is a sod to push into equalisation so never did it, though lavished care on them in all other ways. After three years they were comprehensively, mega-gassing trashed, fit to coddle eggs on when charging with the shoreline. I'm now a devotee of el cheapo, sealed, fit and forget boxes.

+ 1 Cheapo sealed fit then bin two plus years later lubbly jubbly.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

+ 1 Cheapo sealed fit then bin two plus years later lubbly jubbly.

But both the sets of cheapo leisures I got, were down to 1/2 capacity after 6 months of leisure use, and on shore power when not using the boat. I got the capacity back by equalising but it was a faff I had to repeat frequently until they died (presumably from plate shedding). Do yours survive for 2 years without any faff simply because your usage is such that you don't notice when the capacity is down to half or less?

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

But both the sets of cheapo leisures I got, were down to 1/2 capacity after 6 months of leisure use, and on shore power when not using the boat. I got the capacity back by equalising but it was a faff I had to repeat frequently until they died (presumably from plate shedding). Do yours survive for 2 years without any faff simply because your usage is such that you don't notice when the capacity is down to half or less?

Actualy that might be the case. We probably dont need the full  four 110 capacity in our daily useage and as we charge daily we probably just use more of their remaining capacity as time goes by. I have a NASA monitor so charge each day till there is less than 5 amps being put in and I think it can tell me how many amp hours are actualy in the batteries but wouldnt know which button to check that out lol. We do however as liveaboards get more than two years use and the 12 volt fridge is never switched off etc so we do well in my opinion. How do I know how much capacity is left in them?

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So which was it he recommended then?

AGM and gel are two different types of battery IIRC, with different advantages and drawbacks.

You'll have to enlighten me there, NC doesn't draw much distinction between the two except that AGM's charge up slightly faster.  

It would be interesting to know what the latest edition (2015) of the Boatowners Manual says, I'm referring to the third edition which I think is 2005 and things have moved on, electrics wise in those ten years.  

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

You'll have to enlighten me there, NC doesn't draw much distinction between the two except that AGM's charge up slightly faster. 

Someone posted a link the other day in one of the other battery threads to a long and comprehensive PDF by Victron (I think it was) giving an in depth education about batteries, including a detailed explanation of each type of battery. AGM is different from Gel abd has different properties according to the PDF. I remember concluding that AGM was vastly superior in many ways to Gel.

Does anyone have the link again please? Stupidly I failed to save it. Thanks!

[Richard10002]

10 hours ago, Dave_P said:

This thread has confirmed for me that my system of budgeting for 3x110ah budget batteries every two years is the only way to go unless;

1.  You actually enjoy obsessing about this stuff.

2. You want to be stressed out about it all the time.

If my power demand was to rise in the future, I'd simply get more cheapo batteries.

I don't have a smartthingy and i charge up when i need to.

My current set of three are coming up on two years now but still seem to be going ok.  Any longer than two years and I consider it a bonus (usually I get 3+, but on land line some of the time).  I expect to pay around £200 for the 3, minus around £30 trade in on the dead ones.  £170 over 104 weeks equals £1.60 per week.  Sounds like a bargain to me.

 

 

After buggering about with batteries and monitoring for over 5 years, I've reached the same conclusion.

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Someone posted a link the other day in one of the other battery threads to a long and comprehensive PDF by Victron (I think it was) giving an in depth education about batteries, including a detailed explanation of each type of battery. AGM is different from Gel abd has different properties according to the PDF. I remember concluding that AGM was vastly superior in many ways to Gel.

Does anyone have the link again please? Stupidly I failed to save it. Thanks!

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-Energy-Unlimited-EN.pdf

[Neil2]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Someone posted a link the other day in one of the other battery threads to a long and comprehensive PDF by Victron (I think it was) giving an in depth education about batteries, including a detailed explanation of each type of battery. AGM is different from Gel abd has different properties according to the PDF. I remember concluding that AGM was vastly superior in many ways to Gel.

Does anyone have the link again please? Stupidly I failed to save it. Thanks!

There are obviously technical differences but I think the point is from a practical, boat owning point of view, it doesn't matter much which you go for.    AGM's appear to charge faster, Gels appear to last a bit longer.  The manufacturers of both will doubtless make their own claims and counter claims, I doubt they are worth much.

 

I really do wonder about all the industry and technology that has gone into battery management over the last decade or so.  I've had no trouble getting seven years from a set of Trojans without any gadgets and we do have the usual array of electrics, fridge TV, computer etc.  And very little of our time is spent on a shore line. 

I do think our battery capacity is matched very close to actual usage.  I often wonder if narrowboaters over estimate their power requirements and have more capacity than they really need.

 

 

[Richard10002]

On 05/03/2017 at 22:07, Richard10002 said:

to smileypete: I don't get to see my batteries bubbling away as they are on the counter, under the cruiser stern. I can see one, which has always bubbled away when I've looked at it.

I took the SGs for the first time in a long time a couple of weeks ago, after a charge to low tail current, and a few hours of equalising. The cells were all over the place, varying from 1.236 to 1.262. If they are sulphated, and recoverable, my life is too short to "mess about" any more.

If what I do isn't good enough, I've decided to give up trying to lengthen the life of my batteries, and accept my fate of new ones every 2 years.

 

Smiley Pete: The above was included in a response to another post, so you likely missed it - you might miss this

I nearly bought some batteries yesterday, but couldn't decide whether to buy non branded for about £75 per 110Ah battery, or Varta Hobby again, for £105 per 100Ah battery, (a bit of research told me that the cheapo non branded I bought in early 2012 had given up the ghost by May 2013 when I bought the Vartas).

Given what you suggest, and given that my 450Ah Trojans seem to have a present capacity of about 150Ah or so, I could buy a couple of 200Ah solar panels, (£200), and a 40A MPPT controller from Bimble, and see if I can keep things going through the spring/summer. I already have a 100W panel charging through a PWM controller, so i would have 500W of solar, which might even provide all the power I use for 6 months +/- .

Assuming the batteries are mostly at 100%, I could then equalise to my hearts content, and see what can be recovered...

[MtB]

On 08/03/2017 at 18:09, nicknorman said:

But both the sets of cheapo leisures I got, were down to 1/2 capacity after 6 months of leisure use, and on shore power when not using the boat. 

 

I'm deeply curious about why that happened, given the board's received wisdom is that batteries looked after correctly (as I'm sure you did) don't fall to 50% capacity in 6 months. 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm deeply curious about why that happened, given the board's received wisdom is that batteries looked after correctly (as I'm sure you did) don't fall to 50% capacity in 6 months. 

No, 50% is fine. Just don't, whatever you do, let them fall below, 50

[MtB]

Yes batteries at 49% are officially 'broken' apparently!

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes batteries at 49% are officially 'broken' apparently!

Ah. But is that 49% when they are at full capacity. So only 75% when you have worn them in a bit

Edited March 12, 2017 by rusty69