Failed BSC

[tstore]

I recently bought a NB and the BSC expired a few months later. Assumed as it passed before it would be a formality but boy was I wrong. Apparently, the regs have changed and its now all about fire and explosion. He failed me on not being able to see all the joints in gas pipework, water in gas lockers (drain is slightly above bottom of locker so does not completely) and not having fuses in all 12v cables. There were a few other things too.

 

Anyone got any advice on fusing the 12v cables?

Thanks

[Paul C]

Sounds like its had a dodgy BSC before - those items have always (well, definitely in the past 4 years) been failable items.

The normal way to fuse the 12V items is to have a main feed to a fusebox or circuit breaker panel then run everything from there. If there's extra items connected directly to the battery, then you can use inline fuses and fuse holders. And if there's large items, then midi or maxi or megafuses mounted somewhere convenient, with appropriate sized cables etc

[tstore]

Could well have been dodgy and feel like exposing the examiner? In hindsight should have requested an BSC before buying, but was naive.

Thanks for the advice. Is there a standard fuse to use or is it dependant on what its powering. In my case 12v does lights, water pump and central heating pump. All sockets and fridge are 240 volt.

 

[WotEver]

I'd have thought it's far more likely that the previous owner has made changes over the last 4 years than that he had a 'dodgy' examiner. 

Every feed should be protected by a fuse which is sized to protect the cable, so we can't tell you the fuse sizes without first knowing the cable sizes.

There are loads of notes that can help you to understand electrical issues on Tony Brooke's site here: http://tb-training.co.uk/cover.html but to get the boat through the BSS quickly I think you'll be best off paying a boatyard or other boat electrician to sort it out for you. 

An experienced boatyard can also help with the gas locker drain and replace any gas pipes that have unnecessary joints in them. 

[ditchcrawler]

I found the bottom note about fuses interesting, from that it seems that if the OP has not got a fuse it shouldn't fail

[WotEver]

You're looking at an old version of the guide. The current one is here: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

However, the same rule applies: "On DC systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point"

Which is, as you say, very interesting (if stupid, like much of the BSS)

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

You're looking at an old version of the guide. The current one is here: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

However, the same rule applies: "On DC systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point"

Which is, as you say, very interesting (if stupid, like much of the BSS)

Thanks for that, I will update my file straight away.

 

[Chewbacka]

21 minutes ago, WotEver said:

You're looking at an old version of the guide. The current one is here: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

However, the same rule applies: "On DC systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point"

Which is, as you say, very interesting (if stupid, like much of the BSS)

I do find the BSS is not well written, however I suspect that the "lack of a fuse" may mean that the fuse holder is present, but the fuse itself is not.  In other words the circuit is isolated from the DC supply as the fuse has been removed.  So to pass a BSS examination all fuses do not have to be present, but the circuits even if isolated by the fuse removal must still comply.  Though I agree it is far from clear exactly what they do mean.

 

Added - In this section of the checklist, there is a clear distinction in the way it is written between a fuse holder and a fuse, where a fuse is just the fuseable link and does not include the holder.  As to an MCB missing I suppose the same logic could apply in that it is referring to both the type that plug in (being unplugged) and a self contained item that has been disconnected leaving the cables adequately fixed and insulated. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Chewbacka
more thinking

[WotEver]

I agree with all you have written, Chewy. They can't possibly mean that cables don't need to be fused even if they appear to say so. 

[matty40s]

There is quite often water in the bottom of gas lockers(especially when the water tank is full), I believe the fail occurs if the drain is below the external water level.

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, matty40s said:

There is quite often water in the bottom of gas lockers(especially when the water tank is full), I believe the fail occurs if the drain is below the external water level.

 

More specifically, the base of the gas locker MUST be above canal water level or the drain holes cannot function.

[Chewbacka]

18 minutes ago, matty40s said:

There is quite often water in the bottom of gas lockers(especially when the water tank is full), I believe the fail occurs if the drain is below the external water level.

Agree - the LPG drain hole must be open and unrestricted to allow any LPG to escape.  The only exception to this is to have a drain hole that is slot shaped such that the bottom part of the slot is under water but the remaining open area (above the water) meets the size requirement and is open for gas to escape.

I think this to be very reasonable as if the hole is under water then should there be a leak, the gas can not escape and will overflow the locker and enter the vessel.

[Onewheeler]

As a general query, is the shore-side MCB considered OK for protection for the wiring which leads onboard to the isolation transformer (or galvanic isolator) and thence to the RCCB and consumer unit? Most "blue" mains connectors are not fused (although our shore outlet uses a 13A plug with fuse in a weatherproof bankside box so we're doubly protected).

Martin/

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

More specifically, the base of the gas locker MUST be above canal water level or the drain holes cannot function.

I'm not sure that is actually true.

I think it is OK for there to be water in the bottom of the locker, (and the cylinder to actually be stood in it), provided the drain holes are actually vertical slots that go to the bottom, but extend upwards enough that the top is always above the level of any water in there, so leaked gas can still escape.

Whether this is a good idea, of course, is another matter, but provided nothing looks about to corrode through, I think an inspector will accept it.

[BruceinSanity]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm not sure that is actually true.

I think it is OK for there to be water in the bottom of the locker, (and the cylinder to actually be stood in it), provided the drain holes are actually vertical slots that go to the bottom, but extend upwards enough that the top is always above the level of any water in there, so leaked gas can still escape.

Whether this is a good idea, of course, is another matter, but provided nothing looks about to corrode through, I think an inspector will accept it.

Mike Carter certainly accepted it in SA, where the base of the gas locker floods when the water tank is full. We also had the base and first six inches of the sides painted with Comastic, placing rubber mats for the cylinders to stand on.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm not sure that is actually true.

I think it is OK for there to be water in the bottom of the locker, (and the cylinder to actually be stood in it), provided the drain holes are actually vertical slots that go to the bottom, but extend upwards enough that the top is always above the level of any water in there, so leaked gas can still escape.

Whether this is a good idea, of course, is another matter, but provided nothing looks about to corrode through, I think an inspector will accept it.

Yes, agreed. I'd forgotten about the 'vertical slot' method.

Best of all though is to have a gas installation that doesn't leak

[rusty69]

16 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm not sure that is actually true.

I think it is OK for there to be water in the bottom of the locker, (and the cylinder to actually be stood in it), provided the drain holes are actually vertical slots that go to the bottom, but extend upwards enough that the top is always above the level of any water in there, so leaked gas can still escape.

Whether this is a good idea, of course, is another matter, but provided nothing looks about to corrode through, I think an inspector will accept it.

There are a couple of boats near us that have the vertical slot in the gas locker(locker at the aft end). The bottles sit in the water,and as far as I know both have passed the test.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Onewheeler said:

As a general query, is the shore-side MCB considered OK for protection for the wiring which leads onboard to the isolation transformer (or galvanic isolator) and thence to the RCCB and consumer unit? Most "blue" mains connectors are not fused (although our shore outlet uses a 13A plug with fuse in a weatherproof bankside box so we're doubly protected).

Martin/

As usual with these things it depends on which regulations you want to satisfy. For the BSS it does now say you need to have a consumer unit, which implies MCBs. Or, if shore power is the only source of ac power, you can have a protection system in the lead (ie in line with the shore power lead. However all these things are boat equipment, under your control.

What you can't do is to rely on any shore supply that you might plug into, having the necessary protection. It should do, but "should" isn't the same as "will". What goes on inside a shore bollard or other connector is outside your control and you have no idea what bodgery might be present inside!

bear in mind you can't expect an examiner to approve a system just because it's plugged in by a 13A fused plug. Next day you might cruise off somewhere else and connect to another shore supply using a different and unfused connector.

 

edit: I may have misread the question. Yes you have to rely on the shore bollard to protect the cabling (including that side of the IT). The BSS is pretty vague about ac electrics but if you want to comply with the recreational craft directive you do need a breaker within 0.5metres of the shore connector, or 3m if the cabling inside the boat up to the breaker is trunked, boxed in etc

Edited March 1, 2017 by nicknorman

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

There are a couple of boats near us that have the vertical slot in the gas locker(locker at the aft end). The bottles sit in the water,and as far as I know both have passed the test.

I suspect (but could be wrong of course) that the BSS fail wasn't because there was water in the locker but because the standing water clearly demonstrated that the drain holes weren't at the bottom of the locker. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I suspect (but could be wrong of course) that the BSS fail wasn't because there was water in the locker but because the standing water clearly demonstrated that the drain holes weren't at the bottom of the locker. 

Thats how I have read it too, although I don't think ours are at the bottom of the locker either, though it never gets wet in ours.

[Alan de Enfield]

The BSS Requirements

 

7.3.1 Is there a drain in the cylinder locker and is the drain outlet above the waterline?
Identify the presence of a cylinder locker drain in each cylinder locker.
Identify the cylinder locker drain outlet on the outside of the hull and verify that it is above the normal laden waterline.
All cylinder lockers must be fitted with a drain facility.
Cylinder locker drain outlets must be on the outside of the hull above the normal laden waterline.
Applicability – If for any reason water can enter the cylinder locker through the locker drain, there must always be a higher drain hole(s) or enlarged ‘slot’ which is open to the outside air in accordance with 7.3.6 to ensure an unobstructed passage of leaked LPG to the outside. 

 

7.3.6 Does the drain line, or the drain opening, have a minimum appropriate internal diameter or equivalent area?
Measure the internal diameter of each cylinder locker drain opening.
Check the drain line that can be seen for no obvious reductions.
Cylinder locker drains must have a minimum internal diameter of 12mm (½in) or increased pro-rata up to 19mm (¾in) 
Total capacity internal diameter of drain opening or equivalent area

1-18kg 12mm (½in) 113mm²

19-29kg 14mm (9/16  in) 154mm²

30-37kg 17mm (⅝in) 227mm²

38kg or greater 19mm (¾ in) 283mm²

[tstore]

Hi all

Glad to say, I resolved all issues including a gas leak and now passed BSC at 3rd visit! A real learning experience and aware of so much more safety issues on my home now, well worth the stress!

 

Thomas

 

 

[Laurie Booth]

On 2/28/2017 at 21:58, tstore said:

Anyone got any advice on fusing the 12v cables?

Thanks

Ask your examiner who should explain what you need to do.

2 hours ago, tstore said:

Hi all

Glad to say, I resolved all issues including a gas leak and now passed BSC at 3rd visit! A real learning experience and aware of so much more safety issues on my home now, well worth the stress!

 

Thomas

 

 

Glad all is now OK

[Neil2]

On several occasions I have been caught up in a dispute between two or more BSC examiners who have taken opposing views on what, according to the BSS, should be matters of plain fact and not open to interpretation.  The BSS is a complete mess and the hapless boat owner is often subject to unnecessary stress and expense because of it.  

The best you can do is try and get the boat examined by the same inspector who did it last time but then again it wouldn't surprise me if these guys could contradict themselves. 

[FadeToScarlet]

On 01/03/2017 at 13:48, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

More specifically, the base of the gas locker MUST be above canal water level or the drain holes cannot function.

Unless you enlarge the drainholes upwards, I.e a slot, so there is venting above water level, I believe

 

That said I wouldn't like a soggy gas locker floor, too risky for me