Jump to content

Water Valiant/Valiant trip boat - Help needed


Greygal

Featured Posts

Hello all, this is a bit of a long shot but I never cease to be amazed at the help and knowledge available here so here goes...

Last year we took Enceladus to the Braunston festival - first time for the boat, first time for us. I remember a chap commenting as he passed by the boat that he used to work her in her Water Valiant/Valiant trip boating days. Trouble is, I was so giddy and excited at the whole show experience that I wasn't really thinking, and therefore didn't do what I would do now: pin him in a corner and extract every last detail out of him. As I'm now trying to put together as much of Enceladus's past life as I can, I'm kicking myself about this missed opportunity. So here's my plea - was that you who passed by? Or do you know who it might have been? Or, while I'm at it, does anyone know anything about Enceladus/Water Valiant that might supplement the basic working boat/pump boat/maintenance boat/hire boat/trip boat/private boat history I already have?

Answers on a postcard please, and thanks in advance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Enceladus" was not ever a "trip" boat, I would say.

A hire boat, yes, but surely after cut short to the length it was, it would not then have made a suitable trip boat, except maybe on some disconnected bit of canal.

As I'm sure you are aware, it retained a "barrel" roof in the style of it's hire boat days, right up until it ended up in Keith ball's yard.

I'm fairly confident if you watch the "Narrow Boat" series about "Dover" that it is quite clearly visible as the background in some of the footage, but from memory never the whole boat, just things like the roof projecting up above things.

From memory, (though I am sure Pete Harrison will correct me if I am wrong), it was the sole example of a conversion of a carrying boat to a BW hire cruiser where the original motor back end almost certainly got scrapped.  I think all the others either retained both ends, and lost bits of the middle, or 9as in many cases), were buttys cut in half, so the back end became the front end of a second fire boat.

Not a Northwich, obviously, but this one retains much of the hire boat look.....

IMG_0080.jpg

IMG_0081.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Alan, and I have to say that yes, you're quite right, she never looked like a conventional 'trip boat' and I am a tad confused about this phase. But I'm going on a couple of pieces of information here. One, that I've seen repeated across a number of sources, like the RN Register, which says 'based as trip boat at The Bratch on the Staffordshire and Worcestershire Canal'. And second, what this chap said to me at Braunston...So it's even more important I find out now! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you sent a polite request to Pete Harrison of this forum to let you have all the history he holds about Enceladus?

This is the best information you are likely to get about who owned it, and when, I think.

Also, have you seen this old thread?  I've not been through it to see if Water Valiant is mentioned, but even if not, it gives excellent insight in to what these eraly hire boat conversions were like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Have you sent a polite request to Pete Harrison of this forum to let you have all the history he holds about Enceladus?

This is the best information you are likely to get about who owned it, and when, I think.

Also, have you seen this old thread?  I've not been through it to see if Water Valiant is mentioned, but even if not, it gives excellent insight in to what these eraly hire boat conversions were like.

Will have a good look through that thread, thank you, Alan. Another excellent distraction from this morning's work. I did have the pleasure of a super chat with Pete at Braunston...looks like the missing aft section is the Holy Grail

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A chap named Gavin Cook bought Water Valiant off  b w b when it was retired from the hire fleet, I think it was his intention to either hire it out or downsize from Morag, ex Seagull the converted ex Cowburn & Cowpar motor boat he owned. Valiant was sold within two years, Morag / Seagull sold about 1977.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, ANDREW P said:

A chap named Gavin Cook bought Water Valiant off  b w b when it was retired from the hire fleet, I think it was his intention to either hire it out or downsize from Morag, ex Seagull the converted ex Cowburn & Cowpar motor boat he owned. Valiant was sold within two years, Morag / Seagull sold about 1977.

As if to underline my point above...never ceases to amaze me what people know and are happy to share. Thank you, Andrew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

From memory, (though I am sure Pete Harrison will correct me if I am wrong), it was the sole example of a conversion of a carrying boat to a BW hire cruiser where the original motor back end almost certainly got scrapped.  I think all the others either retained both ends, and lost bits of the middle, or 9as in many cases), were buttys cut in half, so the back end became the front end of a second fire boat.

The stern ends of both ENCELADUS and KELSO appear to have been lost / scrapped when the fore ends were converted to 'British Waterways hire cruisers.

The only two 'British Waterways' hire boat conversions to retain both ends were WATER ARABIS (ARABIA) and WATER BULRUSH (HARE), and no other 'British Waterways' hire cruiser utilised the original counter stern :captain:

2 hours ago, ANDREW P said:

Valiant was sold within two years, Morag / Seagull sold about 1977.

MORAG / SEAGULL sold in January 1979 :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

The stern ends of both ENCELADUS and KELSO appear to have been lost / scrapped when the fore ends were converted to 'British Waterways hire cruisers.

The only two 'British Waterways' hire boat conversions to retain both ends were WATER ARABIS (ARABIA) and WATER BULRUSH (HARE), and no other 'British Waterways' hire cruiser utilised the original counter stern :captain:

It's a fair cop, Pete!

As I was going through pictures I found Kelso, and meant to go back and correct what I had wrongly said about Enceladus being the only one to lose a motor stern.

Kelso seems an odd choice, when surplus "Small" GUCCCo boats (and FMC boats), were surely available.  A heavily shortened "Large" GUCCCo boat just making a more unwieldy hire boat.  Mind you many of those conversions seem very odd by modern day standards!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ANDREW P said:

A chap named Gavin Cook bought Water Valiant off  b w b when it was retired from the hire fleet, I think it was his intention to either hire it out or downsize from Morag, ex Seagull the converted ex Cowburn & Cowpar motor boat he owned. Valiant was sold within two years, Morag / Seagull sold about 1977.

Any educated guesses as to when this might have been?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Kelso seems an odd choice, when surplus "Small" GUCCCo boats (and FMC boats), were surely available.  A heavily shortened "Large" GUCCCo boat just making a more unwieldy hire boat.  Mind you many of those conversions seem very odd by modern day standards!

In the autumn of 1958 DOVER was also set aside for conversion to a hire cruiser, but as we know it was subsequently transferred to the North Western Division for use as a maintenance boat :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't blame me for going off post... Kelso was owned for a period by Sam and Alice Lawton at Cowley lock. They rarely used her being elderly. Sam informed me one day that the stern was on Cowley tip. Given its proximity to bulls bridge and his occupation he was probably right. The discussion centred around creating a full length Northwich butty to pair with thaxted, and who we could upset...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Don't blame me for going off post... Kelso was owned for a period by Sam and Alice Lawton at Cowley lock. They rarely used her being elderly. Sam informed me one day that the stern was on Cowley tip. Given its proximity to bulls bridge and his occupation he was probably right. 

I think it is very unlikely that the stern of KELSO ended up on Cowley Tip, although several other boats did end up there.

KELSO was sent to Icknield Port, Birmingham in September 1958 as a redundant carrying boat for 'conversion'. The 'conversion' was undertaken locally in 1959, and I am sure I have seen photographs of this conversion in progress at Ocker Hill. This would mean that the disconnected stern end of KELSO was in the midlands, where facilities existed to either convert this section to another use or dispose of it as scrap :captain: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately they are no longer around, and he did have a big fund of stories. I remember him getting Kelso he was so proud, but he was already getting on in years .strange also that a motor was cut, and a big one too.  Just postulating a combination event blown engine/ stove in back end/ damaged cabin, might lead to such a decision , unless you know more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

I remember him getting Kelso he was so proud, but he was already getting on in years .

 

3 hours ago, Derek R. said:

I too remember KELSO on the offside by Cowley lock, and being told it belonged to Sam Lawton (around '82/3).

My records suggest Sam Lawton acquired KELSO in 1981, and its previous owner had also been fairly local in Uxbridge :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kelso was a motor and a big one hence strange to cut into a front only ( hence my postulation re other reasons) a town class bow isn't ideal for a short boat.

interestingly just looked on working boats .com  to check that she was a motor ...and the comment about sterns at Cowley tip is referenced with p.h. As source ! 

We may need a seance...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Kelso was a motor and a big one hence strange to cut into a front only ( hence my postulation re other reasons) a town class bow isn't ideal for a short boat.

interestingly just looked on working boats .com  to check that she was a motor ...and the comment about sterns at Cowley tip is referenced with p.h. As source ! 

We may need a seance...

I can provide no evidence that KELSO was converted at Bulls Bridge, although some definitely were (and records of these were kept on the Bulls Bridge 'Cardex' system and do not include KELSO / WATER VOLE), or that its stern ended up on Cowley Tip. As I have said previously I have a photograph somewhere of KELSO and AURORA in the process of being converted, and the location is believed to be Ocker Hill. I am also confident that KELSO would not have been moved from long term storage in the south east to Birmingham in 1958 if its conversion was to be carried out at Bulls Bridge in 1959.

I can provide evidence that the sterns of both ANTONY and GORSE ended up on Cowley Tip, although clearly both of these stern ends made there way back into the canal :captain:

edit = I imagine the details for KELSO on the 'workingboats.com' website are based on information available at that time, but my research is continuously surging forwards so updates will be inevitable. I would like to make it clear I do not support any 'historic' boat website, and never have, although I am always prepared to answer specific questions.

Edited by pete harrison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So much lost knowledge getting pieced back together. In the 80s we found a load of toll tickets and documents in the abandoned yard by common moor lock. Offered them to bulls bridge..no offered them to canal museum no.. They disappeared we couldn't save them having only a small cabin and no storage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 03/03/2017 at 02:03, roland elsdon said:

Kelso was a motor and a big one hence strange to cut into a front only ( hence my postulation re other reasons) a town class bow isn't ideal for a short boat.

interestingly just looked on working boats .com  to check that she was a motor ...and the comment about sterns at Cowley tip is referenced with p.h. As source ! 

We may need a seance...

I have spent some time today trying to resolve the statement above (in bold) as I do not recall providing that information.

So it turns out that the 'p.h.' (or 'PH' on workingboats.com website) relates to detail written on 02 April 2007 in a thread entitled 'Battersea'. This was written almost two years before I joined this Forum (20 March 2009) by another enthusiast with the same initials as me, and was copied almost word for word onto the workingboats.com website.

This highlights how misleading these 'historic' boat websites can be, both in the content of historical information and the possible interpretation of the source - and yes I am aware nobody said PH relates to Pete Harrison in this instance :captain: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am of course the PH referred to as the source of this information.

I was brought up in Uxbridge in the 1970s when Water Vole (ex-Kelso) was  on the Benbow Way houseboat moorings at Cowley.  I was told by more than one person that the stern was on Cowley Tip.  Neither of these were Sam Lawton who was lock keeper at Denham at the time but I accept their information perhaps could be traced back to the same unreliable source although this was only about 15 years after the conversion date.  

I have a photocopy of the BW staff magazine dated May 1959 showing Aurora at Stanley Ferry but Kelso is not alongside.  If a photo exists of the two boats together it unfortunately means that the boat was not converted at Bulls Bridge or Birmingham and both the oral history and the documentary history are wrong!

In fact the situation may have just been more complicated than it first appears with an individual boat being worked on at more than one yard.  I get the impression that one of the motivations in converting these boats was to provide work for otherwise idle craftsman at the various yards rather than with an eye on efficiency or economy.  Certainly the boats were converted to a very high standard regardless of expense - I once looked after the sole converted lifeboat from the fleet which had a cabin that was incredibly solidly put together in chunky hardwoods - the cabin would have outlasted the hull by several decades!

Paul

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Paul H said:

I am of course the PH referred to as the source of this information.

I have a photocopy of the BW staff magazine dated May 1959 showing Aurora at Stanley Ferry but Kelso is not alongside.  If a photo exists of the two boats together it unfortunately means that the boat was not converted at Bulls Bridge or Birmingham and both the oral history and the documentary history are wrong!

Certainly the boats were converted to a very high standard regardless of expense - 

Paul

Perhaps my memory is letting me down and the photograph in my mind of AURORA and KELSO being 'converted' alongside one another is a figment. If and when I find it I will let you know, and if some of my wording has been misleading I can only apologise.

'British Waterways' own records state that KELSO was sent to Icknield Port in September 1958 'for conversion'. Several others were also sent for the same purpose or transfer to the North Western Division. I think it highly unlikely that KELSO would have then been taken all the way back to Bulls Bridge for conversion, especially as it had no engine - and I have 'Cardex' records for the other Bulls Bridge conversions. The Ocker Hill connection is anecdotal.  

As you say the cost of the conversions was not a particular consideration. The L.M.S. R. day boat DEHLI (DELHI ?) became WATER VIPER on its conversion at Gloucester in 1959/60 at a staggering cost of £3459 :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.