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Waterways tattoo


magictime

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24 minutes ago, Athy said:

I spelled it in the same way that you have done - but we are both guilty of typo's, it should be "bourguignon".

I copied what your computer wrote for you, to show the mess it had made, while thinking that that would be clear for you to understand.

Even while not eating that dish (as a vegetarian), I know how to write it, and so does my laptop :P

 

Peter.

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:


And here is the rub. People who have overt tattoos in obvious visible places seem to be challenging the world and saying "Hey look at me, I dare you to judge me based on my appearance, and I think you'll get it wrong."

I tend to do the same by dressing scruffily and driving a van that looks like a junkyard inside. I get a curious satisfaction from seeing who judges me and who doesn't. It helps me to come to a judgement about them!

 

 

So you are deliberately setting out to make an impression on others, just like the tattooed.  I don't feel the necessity to make an impression on others - they can take me as they find me.   Just as I take others as I find them, preferring those who are not setting out to challenge.

 

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Nick reports a similar scenario when he went into a Jag dealership with his husband. There's no excuse for that. 

Agreed, that is inexcusable, just like ethnic discrimination.  But that is not comparable with reacting to tattoos or deliberate scruffiness, as these are deliberate choices, and statements about the wearer,  unlike race or sexual orientation, which are part of the human condition.

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4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:


And here is the rub. People who have overt tattoos in obvious visible places seem to be challenging the world and saying "Hey look at me, I dare you to judge me based on my appearance, and I think you'll get it wrong."

I tend to do the same by dressing scruffily and driving a van that looks like a junkyard inside. I get a curious satisfaction from seeing who judges me and who doesn't. It helps me to come to a judgement about them!

 

 

I agree. My brother who is quite heavily tattooed I suspect does exactly that. It's human nature to challenge people and in a way dare them to prove their worth by overcoming prejudices. More directly though, it quickly weedles out not just the shallow or judgemental, it intentionally repels people who are not like them. In that way it's protective but also a type of clan identity.

I wrote a thesis on a similar subject many years ago (mainly on the subject of body piercing but it crosses over into the tattoo world). Body adornment is a very powerful thing. When some drunken idiot gets a tramp stamp or Chinese letter tattooed it's a totally different motivation to people who use their bodies as a canvas for unique pieces of art. I've spent 20+ years as a costume designer so the way we adorn ourselves and what it says about social status, hierarchy, allegiance, social preconceptions etc is something I'm very interested in and acutely aware of.

More commonly we see people declaring their tribal affinities or pushing people away by inducing a judgement using their clothing. Goths, EMO's and anyone with a strong cultural identity might be easily recognisable as consciously doing that. Equally many people follow mainstream high street fashion and just blend in with the crowd. Some people blend in because they have no interest in adornment. But the vast majority do so to be accepted or to ward off the kind of labels and societal judgements described above. I find that quite sad, a bit of a shame when so much fun can be had exploring self expression (and by default the responses and judgements of others) through adornment.

Often it's seen as a young person's preserve, and I think it's usually in the first 25 years or so of our lives that we carve a niche for ourselves as someone who stands out due to adornment and attracts judgement, someone who has no interest in adornment and for that reason often still attracts judgement, or someone who is most comfortable as a clone and avoids judgement. But there's nothing I like more than seeing an older person totally breaking with the granny (or grandad) clone tradition and either dressing "like an eccentric" or being adorned in remarkable tattoo artwork, which often faded, tells a story of their lives. 

And then there are the fascinating people who fall into the societal clone category at first glance, but in certain social situations reveal extraordinary body art, or alter-egos portrayed through adornment and so on. They pick and choose if and when they are prepared to accept third party judgement and who from. 

I love that people control what they allow another person to think about them and that they do so through how they publicly adorn themselves with tattoos etc. The amusing irony being that the person judging them thinks they are in the powerful position but the reverse is true. They've been manipulated into pigeonholing themselves by their own judgementalism.  There's something very powerful about altering your skin forever and wearing an artistic or social statement. 

Edited by BlueStringPudding
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42 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

I love that people control what they allow another person to think about them and that they do so through how they publicly adorn themselves with tattoos etc. The amusing irony being that the person judging them thinks they are in the powerful position but the reverse is true. They've been manipulated into pigeonholing themselves by their own judgementalism.  There's something very powerful about altering your skin forever and wearing an artistic or social statement. 

Thank you love this statement, it is borne out every time I shop in a wiltshire market town Waitrose, makes me chuckle quietly to myself at people's reactions. 

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On 25/02/2017 at 15:12, Caprifool said:

I've never understood the need to say "I don't like tattoos" when someone shares their new ink. If we went about expressing everything we don't like about each other, life would get pretty grim. 

I don't think there's anything wrong in expressing an opinion either way. The OP asked for comments after all. It's just the sanctimonious nature of some people's negative comments that is just not necessary.  Perhaps its something to do with a superiority complex or something.

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2 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

So you are deliberately setting out to make an impression on others, just like the tattooed.  I don't feel the necessity to make an impression on others

I'm not sure it's a question of feeling a necessity to make an impression on others. The way we look/dress does make an impression on others, and we all have to choose the way we look/dress based on whether we'd rather come across as "a bit of a rocker", "kind of an arty type", "very fashion-conscious", "just a normal sort of bloke", "very much the successful businessman", or whatever. I don't expect people to run away screaming when they see my tattoos, or for their jaws to drop in amazement, or anything; I just like to feel that I'm putting some of my personality and interests "out there". 

2 hours ago, BlueStringPudding said:

I agree. My brother who is quite heavily tattooed I suspect does exactly that. It's human nature to challenge people and in a way dare them to prove their worth by overcoming prejudices. More directly though, it quickly weedles out not just the shallow or judgemental, it intentionally repels people who are not like them. In that way it's protective but also a type of clan identity.

I wrote a thesis on a similar subject many years ago (mainly on the subject of body piercing but it crosses over into the tattoo world). Body adornment is a very powerful thing. When some drunken idiot gets a tramp stamp or Chinese letter tattooed it's a totally different motivation to people who use their bodies as a canvas for unique pieces of art. I've spent 20+ years as a costume designer so the way we adorn ourselves and what it says about social status, hierarchy, allegiance, social preconceptions etc is something I'm very interested in and acutely aware of.

More commonly we see people declaring their tribal affinities or pushing people away by inducing a judgement using their clothing. Goths, EMO's and anyone with a strong cultural identity might be easily recognisable as consciously doing that. Equally many people follow mainstream high street fashion and just blend in with the crowd. Some people blend in because they have no interest in adornment. But the vast majority do so to be accepted or to ward off the kind of labels and societal judgements described above. I find that quite sad, a bit of a shame when so much fun can be had exploring self expression (and by default the responses and judgements of others) through adornment.

Often it's seen as a young person's preserve, and I think it's usually in the first 25 years or so of our lives that we carve a niche for ourselves as someone who stands out due to adornment and attracts judgement, someone who has no interest in adornment and for that reason often still attracts judgement, or someone who is most comfortable as a clone and avoids judgement. But there's nothing I like more than seeing an older person totally breaking with the granny (or grandad) clone tradition and either dressing "like an eccentric" or being adorned in remarkable tattoo artwork, which often faded, tells a story of their lives. 

And then there are the fascinating people who fall into the societal clone category at first glance, but in certain social situations reveal extraordinary body art, or alter-egos portrayed through adornment and so on. They pick and choose if and when they are prepared to accept third party judgement and who from. 

I love that people control what they allow another person to think about them and that they do so through how they publicly adorn themselves with tattoos etc. The amusing irony being that the person judging them thinks they are in the powerful position but the reverse is true. They've been manipulated into pigeonholing themselves by their own judgementalism.  There's something very powerful about altering your skin forever and wearing an artistic or social statement. 

Some very thoughtful stuff there BSP - not surprisingly if you wrote a thesis on a similar topic! It's interesting to reflect on how age relates to all this. I suppose I've always liked to look somewhat "alternative", but my interest in having a clear-cut "tribal" look - punk, or goth, or whatever - has definitely waned with age. I think one of the things I like about tattoos is that I can have various expressions of my tastes and interests permanently sharing space on my body regardless of how I'm dressed on a given day. If I want to dig out a pair of flares and go full-on hippie, I can do that, but I can equally well put on a suit or a checked shirt and jeans and the tattoos don't (nowadays!) feel any more or less out of place.

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50 minutes ago, magictime said:

I'm not sure it's a question of feeling a necessity to make an impression on others. The way we look/dress does make an impression on others, and we all have to choose the way we look/dress based on whether we'd rather come across as "a bit of a rocker", "kind of an arty type", "very fashion-conscious", "just a normal sort of bloke", "very much the successful businessman", or whatever.

I was specifically replying to MTB's statement about deliberately cultivating a scruffy image.  Other people's motives may differ.

However, you sort of contradict yourself, don't you? (see items in red) You may have to choose the way you come across, but for almost as long as I remember I haven't felt the need to present any sort of front.

And I know you didn't say this, but to describe someone's dislike of tattoos as 'sanctimonious' and indicative of a superiority complex just indicates a degree of defensiveness to me.

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2 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I was specifically replying to MTB's statement about deliberately cultivating a scruffy image.  Other people's motives may differ.

However, you sort of contradict yourself, don't you? (see items in red) You may have to choose the way you come across, but for almost as long as I remember I haven't felt the need to present any sort of front.

And I know you didn't say this, but to describe someone's dislike of tattoos as 'sanctimonious' and indicative of a superiority complex just indicates a degree of defensiveness to me.

Blimey theres some big words there old bean :D Put bluntly tatoos look naff, crap, orrible and are a form of self harm but hey ho thats what my daughter and many other people choose to do so we have to let em get on with it. Just one point have you seen how much the things cost :o OMG............

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1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

However, you sort of contradict yourself, don't you? (see items in red) You may have to choose the way you come across, but for almost as long as I remember I haven't felt the need to present any sort of front.

And I know you didn't say this, but to describe someone's dislike of tattoos as 'sanctimonious' and indicative of a superiority complex just indicates a degree of defensiveness to me.

OK, let me see if I can express myself a bit more clearly. I was suggesting that all of us, whether we like it or not, make some sort of an impression on other people through the way we look/dress; and that it's therefore not the case, as I felt you were implying, that those who feel the need to make an impression can choose to do so, and those who don't feel the need can simply "opt out".

And I'm sorry, but unless you let other people choose your clothes, haircut etc. for you, you do make choices about the the way you come across to other people. There's no way around it. You do it by wearing trousers rather than a kilt, a blue jumper rather than a pink hoody, and in a hundred other ways.

Oh, and I doubt it's your dislike of tattoos that might be coming across as 'sanctimonious' to some people. That's simply a matter of taste, after all. More likely it's your moral condemnation of them, sometimes expressed using religious language such as 'desecration'. As for the impression you've given some people of having a 'superiority complex', again, I wonder if this has less to do with your expression of a simple dislike of tattoos and more to do with the way you've patronised tattooed people as 'faddists' and talked as if you're somehow above such things as being conscious of the impression you make on other people through your appearance.

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1 hour ago, magictime said:

OK, let me see if I can express myself a bit more clearly. I was suggesting that all of us, whether we like it or not, make some sort of an impression on other people through the way we look/dress; and that it's therefore not the case, as I felt you were implying, that those who feel the need to make an impression can choose to do so, and those who don't feel the need can simply "opt out".

And I'm sorry, but unless you let other people choose your clothes, haircut etc. for you, you do make choices about the the way you come across to other people. There's no way around it. You do it by wearing trousers rather than a kilt, a blue jumper rather than a pink hoody, and in a hundred other ways.

Oh, and I doubt it's your dislike of tattoos that might be coming across as 'sanctimonious' to some people. That's simply a matter of taste, after all. More likely it's your moral condemnation of them, sometimes expressed using religious language such as 'desecration'. As for the impression you've given some people of having a 'superiority complex', again, I wonder if this has less to do with your expression of a simple dislike of tattoos and more to do with the way you've patronised tattooed people as 'faddists' and talked as if you're somehow above such things as being conscious of the impression you make on other people through your appearance.

OK, to make it clear, I have never made a conscious decision to wear trousers rather than a kilt, and not for many years have I chosen my clothes with other people in mind.  Almost the only choices of clothing I make are weather or activity related.  I do not tailor (!) my clothing to the impression I make, therefore I don't make choices about the way I come across to other people, despite what you say.

Neither am I making moral judgements - people are quite free to dress or have tattoos to express themselves, and I did say that I try to take people as I find them.  However, I am also quite free to regard ridiculous clothing, tattoos, and other examples of self-expression as fads, and the people choosing to wear such things must recognise that those expressing an adverse reaction are not small-minded or sanctimonious, but just don't like what they see. 

An odd analogy I've come across lately is windfarms.  Many people hate them, and regard them as ugly, a blot on the landscape, a desecration even, and even campaign against them.  I love them, think them beautiful and it's a bonus they make electricity as well.  But I don't condemn those who disagree with me as small-minded, tasteless and sanctimonious just because they express an opinion (and they do!).  And I don't even campaign against tattoos.

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10 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

OK, to make it clear, I have never made a conscious decision to wear trousers rather than a kilt, and not for many years have I chosen my clothes with other people in mind.  Almost the only choices of clothing I make are weather or activity related.  I do not tailor (!) my clothing to the impression I make, therefore I don't make choices about the way I come across to other people, despite what you say

I'm sure you're right that not all your decisions about your clothing, haircut etc. are conscious ones. I'm not suggesting that you carefully weigh up, when you go shopping, whether to buy trousers or a kilt, a plain T-shirt or one with a Sex Pistols logo on it, green wellies or ones with a leopardskin print. I'm not suggesting that you spend any time agonising, before a trip to the hairdessers, over whether to get a short back and sides or a mohican. But you do make these decisions, and you inevitably do so - I maintain - partly on the basis of how you do or don't want to come across to other people. Unless you really are some sort of wild eccentric who might (say) be found on a hot day wearing a flowery skirt, a baggy basketball vest and a sombrero because he finds them comfortable and honestly doesn't care how he looks - but I'm not sure that such people exist, let alone that you're one of them.

11 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Neither am I making moral judgements 

Eh? Sorry, but when you describe something as an act of 'desecration', doesn't that pretty clearly imply that you regard it as a violation of something that ought to be treated with the greatest respect? That's a moral judgement, isn't it?

13 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I am also quite free to regard ridiculous clothing, tattoos, and other examples of self-expression as fads, and the people choosing to wear such things must recognise that those expressing an adverse reaction are not small-minded or sanctimonious, but just don't like what they see. 

I think we need to distinguish here between regarding tattoos as a 'fad', and calling people with tattoos 'faddists'.

To me a 'fad' is a trend that persists for a very short time and never 'takes root', so to speak, in a culture. It seems clear enough to me that we're far beyond the point, in our culture, where tattooing can be regarded as a fad, just as we're past the point where pop music can be regarded as a fad; these things have simply gone on for too long, spread too widely, and meant too much to too many people to be dismissed in that way. So I think you're wrong, but yes, of course you're free to regard tattoos as a fad.

When you refer to tattooed people as 'faddists', though, you're not just expressing the fact that you 'don't like what you see' (which of course would be fair enough); you're saying something about the sort of people they are. Specifically, you're suggesting that they're the sort of people who tend to flit from one shallow and short-lived interest to the next, perhaps on the basis of what's trendy that week, that month, or that year. That is a very patronising and dismissive way to talk about people, and suggests a lack of open- mindedness about their reasons for making the choices they make.

14 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

An odd analogy I've come across lately is windfarms.  Many people hate them, and regard them as ugly, a blot on the landscape, a desecration even, and even campaign against them.  I love them, think them beautiful and it's a bonus they make electricity as well.  But I don't condemn those who disagree with me as small-minded, tasteless and sanctimonious just because they express an opinion (and they do!).

There's a world of difference, though - isn't there? - between saying something like

"I find wind farms ugly"

and saying something like

"I consider building a wind farm to be an act of desecration, a disfigurement of the natural landscape, and people who support them are simply faddists for whom 'green' energy is the latest thing"

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I find tattoos a bit boring and I can't believe people are still paying for ink. I am waiting until we can get micro-pixel implants. That way, you can change the picture when you get a bit tired of it. It will even be possible to get animation on them. It will give body art a whole new dimension.

I am hoping that some corporate entity will pay for it if I run a few adverts every month.

Edited by billS
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I think windfarms are fab :D

Do I detect a bit of 'topic drift'?;)

Yes, I'm with you (and Mac!) on this one; I find them quite an aesthetically pleasing addition to the countryside, plus they signify something positive in terms of sustainability. How people can complain about wind farms when the alternatives (power stations and associated infrastructure) are both uglier (surely?) and worse for the environment is completely beyond me.

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12 minutes ago, magictime said:

Do I detect a bit of 'topic drift'?;)

Yes, I'm with you (and Mac!) on this one; I find them quite an aesthetically pleasing addition to the countryside, plus they signify something positive in terms of sustainability. How people can complain about wind farms when the alternatives (power stations and associated infrastructure) are both uglier (surely?) and worse for the environment is completely beyond me.

I am with you however swmbo genuinely likes to see Cooling towers :rolleyes: yes I know I know but I value my life too much to say owt. Its probably because we were born and drugg up surrounded by them.

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2 hours ago, magictime said:

Do I detect a bit of 'topic drift'?;)

Yes, I'm with you (and Mac!) on this one; I find them quite an aesthetically pleasing addition to the countryside, plus they signify something positive in terms of sustainability. How people can complain about wind farms when the alternatives (power stations and associated infrastructure) are both uglier (surely?) and worse for the environment is completely beyond me.

Me too, strikes me as bit of a no brainer really. And why is there not more investment in hydro power, it has the advantages of being relatively constant. There appears to be no appetite to go against the big investors and shareholders who want quick and massive returns for their money despite the environmental cost. 

I shall remove myself from the soapbox now! 

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On 27/02/2017 at 17:57, mrsmelly said:

I am with you however swmbo genuinely likes to see Cooling towers :rolleyes: yes I know I know but I value my life too much to say owt. Its probably because we were born and drugg up surrounded by them.

I'm with your other half on the towers. A small flock of curvy towers doing their thing on a still, chilly autumn morning is magic.

Edited by Taslim
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