batteries. Batteries constantly dying even though on trickle charge - help!

[MtB]

2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

My son was exactly like this at 18.

Then he joined the Army.

End of problem, amazing what Basic Training achieved in 14 weeks, though by pretty brutal methods.

 

I'm still like it at 61.

In fact its getting noticeably worse...

[BruceinSanity]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Its not Brutal when I joined in 74 it was brutal they cant even shout at them now whats that all about?

Right enough this was 20 years ago. I was thinking of the locker inspections where, if the stuff wasn't exactly as required, the corporal pulled it all out onto the floor, gave it a good trampling and said "Next inspection in two hours. Get on with it, you still here?"

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

Right enough this was 20 years ago. I was thinking of the locker inspections where, if the stuff wasn't exactly as required, the corporal pulled it all out onto the floor, gave it a good trampling and said "Next inspection in two hours. Get on with it, you still here?"

I have had that and the taken behind the barracks etc etc it does sharpen you up a bit

[Tony Brooks]

Just back from the boat.

 

When I got there Olive had put her old charger on the battery and there were lights. I showed them both how to remove two failed halogen bulbs and check the supply. The halogens were 10 watts.

Judging by the weight the charger was of the transformer type and a row of lamps/leds on the front indicated it might deliver 6 amps. It was showing 1 amps  and 13.6 volts (measured) when I got there. I could not measure any significant permanent discharge.

After trying a variety of tricks to get none of the modern Halfords "smart" chargers to charge (including my own that looks like Biz's) I gave up. By that time the charger was showing no lamps and 15.2 volts with a measured 0.8 amps. I think this confirms it is a non-smart charger and it is why it will charge but smart ones will not.

This morning I looked up the data for Halford's chargers and as expected it was all marketing blurb and no proper technical specs. By extrapolation from the few figures given it appears that the chargers range in outputs from 2 amps to about 4 amps. There were no current markings on the chargers we had.

There was also the "new" 115Ah Halfords leisure battery that registered 6.4 volts when I tested it. Again no Halfords charger would even show power when connected to it.

On both the connected battery and the "new one" I tried connecting both the old charger plus a Halfords one in the hope that the old charger output would fool the new charger into thinking there was some charge in the batteries and work. All that did was to illuminate the "bulk" charge light on the Halfords charger even without it being plugged into the mains.

 

My conclusion is as follows. The old original battery that I did not bother with but I was told it worked for some time probably had a degree of internal shorting so the charger never sensed that the battery was fully charged so it stayed in bulk charge and covered the loads. When that battery failed (probably shorted a cell) the new battery had far less internal discharge so the so called smart charger did fully charge it. Now, I am far from clear what they do at this point being "consumer, mass market items". They may just illuminate the "fully charged" lamp and turn themselves off or they may drop to a float voltage. I do not think the float voltage is enough to cover the load of the 10W lamps being on until after midnight so the battery gradually fully discharged and sulphated.

The speed at which the  voltage from the old transformer charger reached 15 volts (about an hour or less) tends to confirm gross loss of capacity.

I think this may have been avoided if the "smart" charger was turned off and on again each day to force it back to "bulk" charge. In short I think its a very stupid charger ruining batteries.

 

I have advised that the batteries be taken to a garage and charged with some beefy equipment. This may just knock some sulphate off the plates and reconvert a bit more. I have also advised that if the Halfords charger is to continue in use it MUST be turned off and on again each day but the real answer is a three stage "marine" type charger that will not turn itself off  and will switch automatically back to "bulk"/"absorption" when a load goes on or the batteries discharge a bit.

 

Although I do not like single battery boats because of starting issues in this case and with the use made of the electricity I think it will work once the charging and battery condition is sorted.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Arthur Brown]

Once there is some solar available things should improve! Til then probably best to consider batteries as disposable OR take them to a garage/vehicle electricians for a charge once a week.

Yes the charger needs replacing with either a beefier one or a OEM smpsu set to 13.8 and left on 24/7.

Chargers for the car parts industry often switch OFF after 24 hours on the assumption that if it's not charged by then the battery is not flat but dead, a false assumption in the recreational boating market. 

A battery is a bit like a fuel tank, you can't take out what's not there! UNLIKE a fuel tank leave it empty for long and you buy a replacement battery.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Arthur Brown said:

Once there is some solar available things should improve! Til then probably best to consider batteries as disposable OR take them to a garage/vehicle electricians for a charge once a week.

Yes the charger needs replacing with either a beefier one or a OEM smpsu set to 13.8 and left on 24/7.

Chargers for the car parts industry often switch OFF after 24 hours on the assumption that if it's not charged by then the battery is not flat but dead, a false assumption in the recreational boating market. 

A battery is a bit like a fuel tank, you can't take out what's not there! UNLIKE a fuel tank leave it empty for long and you buy a replacement battery.

Fully agree but at this stage there are considerations that Olive has alluded to in this topic that makes the charger or solar a non-starter. I fear at the moment its trying to make what they have do soem kind of a job for them.

[Graham Davis]

50 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think this may have been avoided if the "smart" charger was turned off and on again each day to force it back to "bulk" charge. In short I think its a very stupid charger ruining batteries.

I've found with my caravan battery that I get the best charging regime over the winter by having the charger on a timeswitch. 

Would that work in this situation?

[Arthur Brown]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mean-Well-SP-200-15-RC-15V-DC-200W-13-4A-Variable-Output-Power-Supply-PSU-/162412997046?hash=item25d091a9b6:g:1a4AAOSwjDZYhf62

 

Set the adjustment carefully

[Arthur Brown]

Currently the only way to keep the batteries charged is to reduce the usage to below the amp hours supplied by the charger. Lights off, pumps off. Sadly if you cannot afford an electrical supply than there isn't electricity.

[OliveOyl]

On 02/03/2017 at 10:02, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm still like it at 61.

In fact its getting noticeably worse...

Big up for you Mike!

[OliveOyl]

Please can you all give Tony a lot of reputation points from me (as I  don't know how to do it) for giving up his time to come and review the boat electrics and dying batteries?

I am interested to read you responses to his post, especially the one about putting the charger on a timer (sounds eminently sensible to me as a 'know-nothing' person, in the light of Tony's advice).

 

Also, can you all let me know what you think of the hyperlink posted by Arthur, as I don't know what it means? 

[Tony Brooks]

On 03/03/2017 at 21:01, Arthur Brown said:

 

Where the **** has the delete post button gone?

7 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

Also, can you all let me know what you think of the hyperlink posted by Arthur, as I don't know what it means? 

If you know what you are doing, monitor the battery state of charge and are not tempted to "turn it up a bit" it should do what is needed but with human input. I am not sure that is ideal in this case.

It is a DC power supply with an adjustable voltage and a reasonable current (amps) output so as long as you can measure the voltage and set it appropriately as required it will  do a similar job to  proper multi-stage charger. However it looks too "open" to me for use in a damp engine room and I have doubts about the life of the voltage adjuster with frequent adjustments.

The way I would use it on open batteries would be to set the voltage to 14.4 and hold it there until the charging amps had dropped to (in your sons case only) about 2 to 3 amps. then I would set it to 13.6 until the next morning. Then repeat the above but once a week set it to about 15+ volts for a couple of hours or until the battery started to get warm, topping up as required. Then back to 14.4 and so on.

[OliveOyl]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Where the **** has the delete post button gone?

If you know what you are doing, monitor the battery state of charge and are not tempted to "turn it up a bit" it should do what is needed but with human input. I am not sure that is ideal in this case.

It is a DC power supply with an adjustable voltage and a reasonable current (amps) output so as long as you can measure the voltage and set it appropriately as required it will  do a similar job to  proper multi-stage charger. However it looks too "open" to me for use in a damp engine room and I have doubts about the life of the voltage adjuster with frequent adjustments.

The way I would use it on open batteries would be to set the voltage to 14.4 and hold it there until the charging amps had dropped to (in your sons case only) about 2 to 3 amps. then I would set it to 13.6 until the next morning. Then repeat the above but once a week set it to about 15+ volts for a couple of hours or until the battery started to get warm, topping up as required. Then back to 14.4 and so on.

Thanks for translating Tony.

I think the timer suggestion will be the best fit for now.

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, OliveOyl said:

Please can you all give Tony a lot of reputation points from me (as I  don't know how to do it) 

Little green arrow at the bottom of his post,  press that and you award a greeny/reputation point

[MtB]

Which of Tony's posts are we greenifying? THIS is why we need the post numbers back!

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Which of Tony's posts are we greenifying? THIS is why we need the post numbers back!

This one. Now isn't that more effective than a number?

 

[OliveOyl]

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

Little green arrow at the bottom of his post,  press that and you award a greeny/reputation point

Cheers Tree.

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

This one. Now isn't that more effective than a number?

 

No not really. With a number I could have just gone immediately to it and administered a greenie. 

[MtB]

And the fact that only you and I have visited the post and greenied it rather illustrates my point!

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

No not really. With a number I could have just gone immediately to it and administered a greenie. 

And with a link you just click on it. Don't have to go looking even if it's several pages back. 

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

And with a link you just click on it. Don't have to go looking even if it's several pages back. 

You're still missing my point. There WAS no link until you posted one. TM could easily have just stated the Post Number, had there been one.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

You're still missing my point. There WAS no link until you posted one. TM could easily have just stated the Post Number, had there been one.

No, you're missing how easy it is. TM could have provided the link just as easily as a post number. They're as easy as each other. In fact the link is easier as you don't have to remember a number. 

[tree monkey]

13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

You're still missing my point. There WAS no link until you posted one. TM could easily have just stated the Post Number, had there been one.

I was only pointing out how to award a greeny to posts in general.

Dont you lot drag me into your bickering

[WotEver]

Just now, tree monkey said:

I was only pointing out how to award a greeny to posts in general.

Dont you lot drag me into your bickering

Gave you a greeny

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Dont you lot drag me into your bickering

 

I'm not bickering. It's all the others...