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Batteries constantly dying even though on trickle charge - help!


OliveOyl

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As far as I can tell,no. It was suggested (amongst other things)however that consumption outstripped supply, possibly due to inadequate charging.

 

 

Quite possibly an accurate diagnosis but still reckless to advise the OP to spend a three figure sum on a total guess.

 

Reminds me of the motorists who replace their battery having assumed it was shot then find the new one goes flat too. Diagnose BEFORE spending money on expensive parts!

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Yes, that appears to be the most likely cause. However, I have strongly suggested that Olive takes up Tony B's kind offer to check the boat out at which time we would hopefully know for sure.

That sounds like the best course of action if within Tony's range, and a very generous offer from him.

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Quite possibly an accurate diagnosis but still reckless to advise the OP to spend a three figure sum on a total guess.

 

Reminds me of the motorists who replace their battery having assumed it was shot then find the new one goes flat too. Diagnose BEFORE spending money on expensive parts!

A knowlegeable person who is prepared to visit the boat is much more preferable (especially for minimimal cost).I think the OP has had such an offer.

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NICKNORMAN

 

I LOVE you for your sanity, 'groundedness' and willingness to speak up for someone trying to learn - thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

After reading all the terrifying comments yesterday afternoon, I got in my car and drove to my moorings. I braved Storm Doris in the pitch dark, gale force winds and lashing rain, and switched off the electricity supply from the shoreline, clambered around a very wet/slippery boat, and removed the shoreline from it, coiling it up and storing it back in the boat - and all by the light of a iphone torch facility and a tealight (yes everyone - SAFELY located in a metal lantern, with sides and a top and a handle for carrying - which I didn't, placed on top of a metal draining board).got back home very late, soaked to the skin and had nightmares all night about gangs of boaters coming to get me (seriously).

 

 

I am now on the internet trying to research leisure batteries and what is the best way forward to try and provide my son with a safe and reliable form of power (I will have to re-think my own boat later and put up with no power for now, as my batteries have also discharged as boat has been in dock for months).

 

 

I will now go back and read any subsequent posts made since I read NICKNORMAN'S). I have to say, I did spend much of the night wondering wy the shoreline elec doesn't have some sort of safety cut-out on it as it seems NN has suggested it does have, as anything I use externally at home goes through a sort of trip/safety device which forms part of the electrical supply.

hug.gif This hug is for NNhug.gif

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Olive, I have not contributed to trying to solve your problem because there are too many unknowns and many of them you, as someone somewhat inexperience, probably have no idea of their relevance. The only help I can offer is to visit the boat if it is "within range". When I visit boats like this to give advice it is ALWAYS free of charge (hence the distance limits) but your problem may end up instructing others in the technical section of Canal Boat magazine.

 

Until we know more about what is going on I very much fear taking some of the well meaning advice on here could cause you to waste money and still not solve the problem.

 

You have enough posts to use the PM system to contact me off forum if you find it preferable.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Gosh, reading all of these posts is becoming a full-time job!!! Please forgive me for not responding straight away to each of you.

Mr Bizzard - Tony will be quite safe from me, your description of me is uncannily accurate - except you forgot my hunched back .

Tony and I are in correspondence with each other, and I have said I will be delighted for him to look over the boat's electrics - and my son will be present - so Tony's virtue will remain intact, as will mine.

I am about to text my son and ask him to take a photo of his battery charger, but meanwhile, I will post a pic of the one he used previously, which is very similar.

I'm afraid many of the more recent comments have 'lost' me  as I don't have the technical knowledge/expertise to follow them, but below is a summary, which I hope illuminates/responds to some of the questions that have been posted.

The boat is old and tatty, and I know virtually nothing about its electrics. I know the lights and water pump run off 12v (I think?)and probably the bilge emptying mechanism, and I assume everything else runs of the 240v mains shoreline.

The original battery (an old one the previous owner left) was connected to a Halford's battery charger continuously, Battery then died so another boater fetched my son a new battery (marine quality etc). This subsequently died, other boaters told son the battery charger was faulty, so he bought a new one of those. so son bought a new battery charger.  OK for a few months, then everything died. Unknown to  me, son was in the dark, no water for months.  I found out, so went down with a brand new leisure battery from Halfords 115ah. Everything perfect. Battery on continuous charge. Son had lights, water - hurrah!

About . . . . . 3 or 4 weeks, son rang and said everything had died. I went back down, removed battery and charger (both from Halfords) took back and asked for their help as something definitely not right. They checked battery - dead as a dodo. Replaced. I said what about charger as light comes on, but it doesn't charge, same as the last charger. They were about to replace it, then tried it on one of their batteries and all the lights on the charger came on, demonstrating that the charger DOES work.  I take both the new battery and the 'old' charger (actually only about 3months old) back to boat and connect. Bingo, everything works fine. Phone call last week from son, "Mum, no power again, lights/water not working".

I went down on Monday and took multimeter readings of all 3 batteries - the old one, the middle one, and the new one. Old and new both measured 0, the middle one (which has been disconnected for months - measured 9 volts! I took the middle battery up to my car and jump 'started' it, left running for 10-15mins. Put it back on boat, lights worked, 10mins later, all dead again, Multimeter showed volts dropping Clearly, battery not able to hold charge.

I left the boat, having attached my very old 6v battery charger to the (middle) battery and all the lights came on. I told my son to leave it, and check if the lights go off, and to see if he develops any power to his lights/water pump. He is going to look later when he gets in from work and text me, so I will update this post.

Battery charger 002.JPG

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9 hours ago, mross said:

How about this if money is tight? what does the team think? £75 at Halfords or £60 online from Amazon.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Automotive-RCB320-Battery-Charger/dp/B0012EI1G8

Ive got one of these! I bought it in a real rush when the injection pump failed and mtb lent me a little genny. My Sterling pro budget showed no sign of charging batteries in a reasonable time so I dashed to Halfords and got one of these. Its actually ok as long as its set to boost, otherwise it does nuffin, and it will deliver 20amps, though this falls off as it warms up. Trouble is its totally unregulated so the voltage creeps right up to 15v or more towards full charge. This is just what I needed for getting charge into the Trojans but means that this would not be a good charger for permanent connection.

............Dave

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15 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

I went down on Monday and took multimeter readings of all 3 batteries - the old one, the middle one, and the new one. Old and new both measured 0, the middle one (which has been disconnected for months - measured 9 volts! I took the middle battery up to my car and jump 'started' it, left running for 10-15mins. Put it back on boat, lights worked, 10mins later, all dead again, Multimeter showed volts dropping Clearly, battery not able to hold charge.

I'm impressed that it lasted 5 seconds.  9volts is basically dead.  To charge a battery that is even around 50% charged to fully charged takes around 8 hours, 15 minutes would do nothing.

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Robbo

 

I know that now (I have done MUCH reading!)

 

I am also trying to see if I can resurrect my own 3 leisure batteries, having read up about slow charging, topping up electrolytes and bataid tabs - one lives in hope! (Futile, I'm sure, but my son's elecs are bankrupting me).

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6 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

Thanks NN, and you may well be right, and if so, we will have to investigate more powerful battery chargers , but . . . . . . all was still well with these chargers for some months!:unsure:

It might be a function of the time of year /  amount of daylight. Perhaps the charger was just about up to keeping up with demand when the evenings were light, but with the advent of the dead of winter, the lights will be on for a lot longer. You haven't said what sort of lights the boat has, but if it has old fashioned light bulbs it would be worth changing these to LEDs which use about one fifth of the power of the old fashioned bulbs.

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4 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

Robbo

 

I know that now (I have done MUCH reading!)

 

I am also trying to see if I can resurrect my own 3 leisure batteries, having read up about slow charging, topping up electrolytes and bataid tabs - one lives in hope! (Futile, I'm sure, but my son's elecs are bankrupting me).

Don't waste your money on these silly tablets, just stick an aspirin in, it works just as well (even though this might be not at all).

You are mostly not really using the battery as your charger is always on??? (once Tony has sorted this out) so any old batteries will do, have a word with any local boaters to see if they have any old batteries with just a little life left in them.

.................Dave

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26 minutes ago, dmr said:

Don't waste your money on these silly tablets, just stick an aspirin in, it works just as well (even though this might be not at all)

More than not at all - the ascetic acid created from the aspirin will adversely damage the positive plates. 

More than you ever wanted to know about batteries courtesy of Trojan:

http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/

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2 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

I would be very interested to hear more about the possibility/effects/technicalities of 'overcharging'.

Once a battery becomes fully charged, if the voltage is maintained at the normal charging voltage then the current goes to turning the water in the electrolyte (dilute sulphuric acid) into hydrogen and oxygen. The battery fizzes / bubbles as it does this. Thus the electrolyte level gradually falls (it takes a long time) until the battery's lead plates become exposed to air. This is very bad for them! Ultimately the battery runs out of water and this really kills it.

This is what happens with "dumb" chargers that hold the charging voltage indefinitely or even tend to increase the charging voltage as the battery approaches fully charged. Cheapo home chargers are like this.

Then there are "intelligent" chargers that have different operating states. They start off in a bulk charge state and eventually, when they detect that the charge current has fallen right off (ie the battery is fully charged) they switch to Float mode which is a lower voltage that keeps the battery fully charged without over-charging it. These sort of chargers can be left on indefinitely.

However they may well be not designed to return to bulk when son switches the lights on and drains the battery. Some do, some don't. I wouldn't like to say how the specific charger you posted would behave but for sure it is not designed to be connected to a boat's electrical system with its varying current demand, permanently. It is designed to have a flat battery connected to it which it then charges, then goes to float. End of!

For your usage you need a proper marine battery charger that is designed to behave correctly under this relatively "abnormal" usage.

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Thanks Wotever (tho I can't find a reference to overcharging) and NN.

 

I must say, for those of you of mature-enough years to remember The Perishers cartoon, I now feel like Gladly! 

 

It must be time for a mug of cocoa) or something a little more sustaining :P

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2 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

It must be time for a mug of cocoa) or something a little more sustaining :P

Just don't touch that stuff in the demijohn, it looks dead dodgy to me.

..............Dave

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