batteries. Batteries constantly dying even though on trickle charge - help!

[Robbo]

Those look like RCD's to me so 63amp is okay, the MCB's I agree with, they too high for normal boats.

[rusty69]

Your too kind. Yes isn't it, fresh and unblemished.

Out of interest, which led have you got turned on? red or green?

[nicknorman]

 

 

Quite off topic but that consumer unit ("fuseboard") is quite inappropriate for any boat.

Most normal shore line supplies are rated at 16amp (yes - you can get a 32amp setup - but these are not the norm) Both the RCBOs are rated at 63 amps and the breakers are a mix of 40 and 32 amp units.

This is a split unit for a large house NOT a narrowboat. Any qualified electrician would do a complete wobbly and probably go no further. A simple expedient might be to replace the RCBOs with a 16 amp unit. At leas that would protect some of cabling.

It's not satisfactory to say that the shore box would trip at 16amps - but I've seen units where the shore side fails and that can be expensive to repair. It's better if the boat side trips first.

 

The above arrangement is potentially dangerous as it stands.

Hmmm. Eating is potentially dangerous. Lots of people die from it, probably more than from inappropriately rated consumer units.

 

You misunderstand the RCDs, they are not RCBOs. The 63 amps relates to the maximum throughput of the RCD, ie the max current it can pass and safely interrupt when it trips. It trips from current imbalance, not from over-current.

 

Yes I'd agree that probably no one breaker should be rated at more than 16A but plenty of boats seem to have several circuits each protected by breakers whose sum is more than 16A. It is not proscribed even though it might be considered not best practice. Don't over-egg it!

And of course we don't actually know what the shore connector is, although I'll admit that the chances are it's 16A.

Edited February 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[bizzard]

Mrs Oyl could make herself less attractive for when blokes turn up to examine her, her electrics that is, by not washing for a few weeks, wearing an old oyly duffle coat, railwaymens chest warmer trousers, Sou'wester and sea boots and false beard complete with a pair specs with cracked lens, repaired with elastoplast with an arm missing, replaced with a bit of knitting wool belayed around an ear and smoking plug baccy in an old charred pipe. Ha yer got a loit boy.

[ditchcrawler]

Hmmm. Eating is potentially dangerous. Lots of people die from it, probably more than from inappropriately rated consumer units.

 

You misunderstand the RCDs, they are not RCBOs. The 63 amps relates to the maximum throughput of the RCD, ie the max current it can pass and safely interrupt when it trips. It trips from current imbalance, not from over-current.

 

Yes I'd agree that probably no one breaker should be rated at more than 16A but plenty of boats seem to have several circuits each protected by breakers whose sum is more than 16A. It is not proscribed even though it might be considered not best practice. Don't over-egg it!

And of course we don't actually know what the shore connector is, although I'll admit that the chances are it's 16A.

Those breakers only protect the cables down stream from them so if they are sized to suite the curcuit cables they are fine. The cable upstream is protected by the breaker on the supply post, nothing else.

[WotEver]

Mrs Oyl could make herself less attractive for when blokes turn up to examine her, her electrics that is, by not washing for a few weeks, wearing an old oyly duffle coat, railwaymens chest warmer trousers, Sou'wester and sea boots and false beard complete with a pair specs with cracked lens, repaired with elastoplast with an arm missing, replaced with a bit of knitting wool belayed around an ear and smoking plug baccy in an old charred pipe. Ha yer got a loit boy.

You've met my ex wife then?

[Tony Brooks]

Something wrong with it I reckon. I put mine on about 2 hours ago, battery at 12. 2v, voltmeter read 13.5, now crept up to 13.8, in a few hrs time it will top out at 15.2v remain there about 2 hrs and then back to 3.5 or so, tickle. I will then leave it on until until I go to bo-bo's. I have one LED light on at the mo.

 

I have a visually identical charger to that one and I am almost certain it was rated as an 8 amp output when I bought it. I certainly cope very well when we were in Liverpool docks for a week but then it had solar to help it (60W) but we were running an electric fridge 24/7. I have never seen 15.2V off it and I have a strong feeling it drops to float too early (as do many chargers) and will not go back to bulk charge unless it is switched off and on again.

 

I think that there are Halford chargers and Halford chargers, its all in the spec for the particular product. I think this sort would probably be OK for the OP but others, especially cheaper ones, will not be.

 

 

 

 

[bizzard]

 

I have a visually identical charger to that one and I am almost certain it was rated as an 8 amp output when I bought it. I certainly cope very well when we were in Liverpool docks for a week but then it had solar to help it (60W) but we were running an electric fridge 24/7. I have never seen 15.2V off it and I have a strong feeling it drops to float too early (as do many chargers) and will not go back to bulk charge unless it is switched off and on again.

 

I think that there are Halford chargers and Halford chargers, its all in the spec for the particular product. I think this sort would probably be OK for the OP but others, especially cheaper ones, will not be.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't say on it what its max amps output is, but I did once have the box and I'm sure it said 12a on it. Its fuses are both 20a. I might check it out with my ammeter one day. My wee cabin voltmeter is up to 14.2v now and rising. There are two settings for voltage on it, low for sealed batteries and higher for open wet cell batteries which I keep it on. I'll report back when 15v plus is reached. I do have other portable chargers, a small 4a trickler, a bigger 20a thing and a proper fully adjustable garage booster charger on wheels for doing jobs with. Its at 14.3v now

 

I shall make an exposure with my camera later when its reached 15.1v and stick it on here

Edited February 22, 2017 by bizzard

[nicknorman]

Those breakers only protect the cables down stream from them so if they are sized to suite the curcuit cables they are fine. The cable upstream is protected by the breaker on the supply post, nothing else.

Correct!

[Slim]

I will try and upload some pics in a few minutes.

 

My puzzle is - how come it all worked fine for months, then stopped. I'm not aware of making any changes,.

 

 

The boat has sockets (like in a house, no lighter type sockets). The water pump and lights run off 12v I understand, and it it these that are dying/have stopped working.The TV, fridge, freezer, all work (via sockets) . So in response to MROSS, if I turn the inverter off, all the power to the sockets stops, and then there will be nppower to the boat for anything. As I said, I will try and find out how to upload the pics I took yesterday.

 

Meanwhile everyone, thank you so much for taking the time to try and help.

 

 

 

Not got any further down this topic so sorry if question is asked in the next 5 pages.

 

What make and model is the inverter? Could it be a combi as opposed to a stand alone inverter. If so turning the unit off could have the effect of shutting down all 230v outlets.

 

As others are saying make/model/photos needed

 

 

Frank

 

 

 

Ignore all my comments, tried to delete but can't. I

Edited February 22, 2017 by Slim

[nicknorman]

Those look like RCD's to me so 63amp is okay, the MCB's I agree with, they too high for normal boats.

 

Of course we don't actually know if they are connected to anything. 6 breakers for a boat is an awful lot. Maybe just one 16A breaker is connected and the rest arose simply because that CU was available for nowt or cheap?

[dmr]

I think the OP should take great care here, I strongly suspect that Tony holds no qualifications in 12v electrics (though likely 40 years experience) and NickNorman just has one of those silly electronics degrees which also is not a qualification for working on boat electrics. Is there actually a 12v boat qualification? And as for cables going in thru windows, that's what I do, well actually it goes in thru the pidgin box with a bit of flexible plastic trunking as token protection, passes the BSS every time.

 

But seriously, best option is to get Tony to have a look, second best is to post lots of photos here, take the advice given here with a bit of care, most but not all will be good. There are a few knowledgeable boat fixers about who specialise in fixing "not top of the range boats" for "not top of the range prices". Try to find one.

 

One of the nifty little eBay voltmeters that plugs into a 12volt socket might be a good investment here.

 

..................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

My concern when she said modified a lead it was a plug to plug lead which in turn was plugged into a socket in the lounge. Yes I have seen it.

[nicknorman]

My concern when she said modified a lead it was a plug to plug lead which in turn was plugged into a socket in the lounge. Yes I have seen it.

Oh. I interpreted it as being a lead with a shore bollard connector on one end, and a 13A socket on the other end. Of course, if it is a 13A plug on the other end, this is a really bad idea since the prongs of the plug will be live and exposed if its unplugged.

 

Edit: rechecking, she says it has a "normal extension lead at the end" which I'd take to be a socket.

Edited February 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

Oh. I interpreted it as being a lead with a shore bollard connector on one end, and a 13A socket on the other end. Of course, if it is a 13A plug on the other end, this is a really bad idea since the prongs of the plug will be live and exposed if its unplugged.

Trouble is the info got so muddled we are not sure, or I 'm not

Edit

It was before I realised there were two boats involved

Edited February 22, 2017 by ditchcrawler

[WotEver]

My concern when she said modified a lead it was a plug to plug lead which in turn was plugged into a socket in the lounge. Yes I have seen it.

You may have seen it sir but I have been thrown across a stage by it! Some bright tech at The Golden Garter in Manchester thought it was a nifty way of making an extension lead.

[ditchcrawler]

You may have seen it sir but I have been thrown across a stage by it! Some bright tech at The Golden Garter in Manchester thought it was a nifty way of making an extension lead.

I saw it before it was plugged in.

[Bod]

Thanks for all the info/guidance and advice.

 

I still don't understand why use of one or two small cabin lights for a few hours in the evening, and water pump used about once a week at most, would suddenly kill a brand new 115ah leisure battery on constant charge via a smart battery charger on constant charge though, when for months everything has been fine?

 

I still feel I'm missing something here!

 

Your sons boat.

As I understand things, all was ok, but the domestic battery was changed for a new one, which has since gone flat, despite being charged the same as the previous one. (Which I assume lasted a long time.)

You have had the Halfords charger checked, and is charging.

Three simple things come to my mind.

1. The new battery is faulty.

2. The charger leads are not making correct contact.(positive lead to positive battery terminal. Charger leads are on the wrong battery?)

3. The use expected from this battery is greater than what was expected from the old battery.

 

1. Return the battery to the supplier.

2. Ensure good contact, between charger leads and the correct terminals on the new battery.

3. Reduce expectations.

 

There are from your photos, cause for concern, regarding the 240v mains electrical setup, which may be a BSS failure.

 

Bod

[nicknorman]

There are from your photos, cause for concern, regarding the 240v mains electrical setup, which may be a BSS failure.

 

Bod

Can you be more precise? Without specificity, I don't think your comment is helpful to the OP.

[Arthur Brown]

Probably the most helpful post would be a correct electrical circuit diagram for each boat. Once you see real connections you can make real decisions about the system.

 

Start by listing what runs off 12v, what runs off mains (only) and what runs off inverter supplied 240v only, then there may be stuff that runs off inverter power and or mains power.

[Alan de Enfield]

.......... kindly point us to where it says in the BSS that draping a mains lead into the boat invalidates the BSS,

 

I take it then that when my boat failed its BSS because despite having a correct 'Blue Landline, socket / Plug' it did not have an RCD, had I just draped the extension lead thru' the window it would have passed ?

 

Just a couple of examples -

 

Section 3:8:1

Shore-power and battery charging inlet connections must be: • securely fitted; • free of missing components; and, • free of signs of damage or deterioration.

 

Section 3:8:2

Shore-power and battery charging leads must be fitted with a female type socket at the end which connects to the vessel’s inlet connection. Alternating current leads within the vessel used to connect individual power sources to the vessel’s alternating current distribution system must be fitted with a male type plug (or be permanently connected) at the end which connects to the power source, and a female type socket at the end which connects to the distribution system.

 

Plugging an appliance straight into the 'socket' of the extension lead would mean that there is no on-board protection, so would fail the BSS under section 3:9:2

 

Check that all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit (also known as fuse/circuit-breaker box or distribution board).

 

I offer no retraction for suggesting that 'dangling an extension lead thru the window' would be a BSS failure.

 

Whilst I obviously have not sighted the OPs insurance policy, both of my boat policies have a similar clause :

 

It is a condition of this insurance that the Insured will take all reasonable precautions in keeping and maintaining the Craft in a proper state of repair and at all times exercise due care and diligence in both the protection, use and manning of the Craft.

 

No Claim shall be allowed in respect of:

..

..

..

...........where the loss or damage has been caused by or results from the negligence of any person whatsoever.........

 

I would suggest that the insurers would take a very dim view of any practice that warranted a BSS failure, and would be likely to refuse cover in the event of an incident caused by a lack of 'due care' to ensure the safe & correct wiring of the electrical system.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

Start by listing what runs off 12v, what runs off mains (only) and what runs off inverter supplied 240v only, then there may be stuff that runs off inverter power and or mains power.

The latter two would be a very short list as OP doesn't have an inverter.

 

 

There are from your photos, cause for concern, regarding the 240v mains electrical setup, which may be a BSS failure.

Why do you think that? I saw nothing that would suggest such a thing so what have I missed?

[bizzard]

This is a strange phenomenom. I've taken several pics with my digital camera of my little volt meter whilst the voltage crept up whilst my battery is charging, to prove that this Halfords charger will top out at 15.2v, it actually topped out at 15.1 today though before dropping back to 13.6float. But the funny thing is all the digits are showing 8's in the pics. Is this because I confused it by taking a digital photo of a digital meter, or because the camera flash was working because its dark. Mystery. Here are the readings.

Edited February 22, 2017 by bizzard

[WotEver]

It's the flash that did it.

[ditchcrawler]

This is a strange phenomenom. I've taken several pics with my digital camera of my little volt meter whilst the voltage crept up whilst my battery is charging, to prove that this Halfords charger will top out at 15.2v, it actually topped out at 15.1 today though before dropping back to 13.6float. But the funny thing is all the digits are showing 8's in the pics. Is this because I confused it by taking a digital photo of a digital meter, or because the camera flash was working because its dark. Mystery. Here are the readings.002.JPG003.JPG004.JPG005.JPG009.JPG010.JPG[attachment=8762:012.

First one 14.4