Canal & River Trust sets out plans to review boat licensing

[mrsmelly]

My experience of consultation is that it's a period during which they allow people to express their opinions, before the do EXACTLY what they planned all along, but now being able to blame us.

 

Rog

 

I have to award agreenie.........it is of course sad but very true. The local council are doing the same re the huddersfield narrow asking peoples " Opinions " re making the towpath BETTER for walkers and .............CYCLISTS before imposing more damned bikes on us. I have written complaining as have others but we realy are wasting our time.

[MtB]

My experience of consultation is that it's a period during which they allow people to express their opinions, before the do EXACTLY what they planned all along, but now being able to blame us.

 

Rog

 

 

My experience of consultations is slightly different.

 

In the gas industry they claim to have consulted before doing exactly what they planned to do all along as you say, but I wasn' consulted, no-one I knew was consulted, and no-one I know knows anyone consulted.

 

My personal view is that only preselected people holding the correct views are invited to consultations. If they happened at all.

[Bewildered]

My experience of consultation is that it's a period during which they allow people to express their opinions, before the do EXACTLY what they planned all along, but now being able to blame us.

Rog

When they do the survey you should pose that question to them and ask if they have a box to tick for it Edited February 20, 2017 by Bewildered

[David Schweizer]

It is interesting that the announcement gives no indication of time scale, or duration, for each consultative stage. Unless they decide on a timetable, and adhere to it, the whole process could rattle on for years. I have only attended one consultative meeting between CaRT and boaters, but I was apalled by the small but vociferous number of self intersted people present, who occupied most of the time available with their selfish and unreasonable demands. If that sort of debacle it allowed to repeat itself, there will never be anything approaching a consensus.

 

Thank God we have sold our boat, and can merely view the whole process unravelling from the sidelines.

Edited February 20, 2017 by David Schweizer

[matty40s]

Oh I dunno. Doesn't the NBTA exist to assist boaters who find it had to understand which box they need to tick?

The National Bikes and Trikes Association will be closely involved in the decisions.

[Alan de Enfield]

[David Schweizer]

My experience of consultation is that it's a period during which they allow people to express their opinions, before the do EXACTLY what they planned all along, but now being able to blame us.

 

Rog

 

Yes, and unfortunately, there is probably very little you can do about it, no matter how unfair you think the outcome is.

 

Whilst I was working, I was one of the Trades Union representatives on the County Consultative Committee, where we were, not infrequently, reminded by the Director, that Consultation is not negotiation. In other words, whilst management might listen, they do not have to take any of the Staff suggestions into account when making a decision.

 

I am not certain what the Consultation rules for CaRT actually state (someone will undoubtably remind us), but uless they indicate that decisions must demonstrate that the views of those being consulted be reflected in that decision, the consultees will have no grounds for compaint. Even if the rules do require such a demonstation, CaRT may well be able to fall back on the fact that many views being expressed during consultaion conflicted with each other. Some people will always loose out.

 

Edited:- for apalling spelling!!

Edited February 20, 2017 by David Schweizer

[Alan de Enfield]

The (Other) NBTA view of C&RT

 

[MtB]

 

Some people will always loose out.

 

Edited:- for apalling spelling!!

 

 

Agreed!

[Detling]

I suspect the desired outcome is an increase in cart's revenue by any means fair or otherwise. As a leisure boater with a marina berth i don't expect my license to be less but if i am lucky maybe not much more. Next will be a charge for services of any sort, we now have a visitor mooring charge in London so the occasional visitor can get a mooring, Charges for water and elsan points on their way?

[magictime]

Would the fitting of 'trackers' and a 'pay-per-mile' be the fairest system ?

 

You pay (say) £2500 into your 'account', if you have unused 'credit' left at the end of the year then your next years 'deposit' is reduced and if you have used 'more' than your deposit then it is increased.

 

In effect similar to paying your domestic electricity bill based on 'average usage' and updated when you are seen to be using more or less than planned.

 

Edit to add :

 

Enforcement of 'non-moving CCers / Bridge hoppers' would need to be increased and clarity given of minimum movement expectations

 

But even if they could legally get away with specifying the minimum amount of movement required, which is highly doubtful, the system you propose would still create a perverse incentive to restrict one's movement as much as possible.

 

And it's not as if use of facilities/infrastructure is all about miles travelled anyway. Obviously some stretches have more locks and swing bridges than others, for starters, but even ignoring that you could have one boater who barely moved but was a heavy user of Elsan points, showers, rubbish collection etc, and another who travelled hundreds of miles a year and never used any of those facilities.

[b0atman]

I wonder if the 1/2 price River licence will go, and the marinas not needing licences be brought into the fold.

[matty40s]

I wonder if the 1/2 price River licence will go, and the marinas not needing licences be brought into the fold.

The first may be reviewed, the second will not be legally possible.

[Alan de Enfield]

I wonder if the 1/2 price River licence will go, ............

 

It is not actually half-price is it. !!!!

 

However as the reduced rate is written into law then it would need parliament to provide new legislation.

 

Edit to add the relevant legislation :

 

British Waterways Act 1983

 

Notwithstanding anything in the Act of 1971 or the Act of 1974 or in any other enactment relating to the Board or their inland waterways, the Board may register pleasure boats and houseboats under the Act of 1971 for such periods and on payment of such charges as they may from time to time determine:

Provided that the charge payable for the registration of a pleasure boat shall not at any time exceed 60 per centum of the amount which would be payable to the Board for the licensing of such vessel on any inland waterway other than a river waterway referred to in Schedule 1 to the Act of 1971 as that Schedule has effect in accordance with any order made by the Secretary of State under section 4 of that Act

Edited February 20, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Naughty Cal]

I wonder if the 1/2 price River licence will go, and the marinas not needing licences be brought into the fold.

I hope not.

 

We have no interest in paying for a full canal and river licence when we won't be going on the canals!

[haggis]

I hope not.

 

We have no interest in paying for a full canal and river licence when we won't be going on the canals!

Just out of interest. When you go through West Stockwith lock are you not on the Chesterfield canal and a river only licence no longer covers you? Or does the canal not start till after the basin above the lock?

 

Just curious as it is not something I have thought of before and I am too lazy to go and look it up :-)

 

haggis

[Mike Todd]

Would the fitting of 'trackers' and a 'pay-per-mile' be the fairest system ?

 

You pay (say) £2500 into your 'account', if you have unused 'credit' left at the end of the year then your next years 'deposit' is reduced and if you have used 'more' than your deposit then it is increased.

 

In effect similar to paying your domestic electricity bill based on 'average usage' and updated when you are seen to be using more or less than planned.

 

Edit to add :

 

Enforcement of 'non-moving CCers / Bridge hoppers' would need to be increased and clarity given of minimum movement expectations

But trackers would almost do the enforcement automatically. You could, however, propose a regime in which mileage below a given amount is charged at a very high rate! Aim to encourage mid-range usage, although I guess that those who are well-travelled are perhaps less likely to impose the same levels of wear and tear on a per lock-mile basis.

 

I also guess that the strongest opponents would be hire companies ('cos their boats travel further per year) and they do seem to have quite a bit of influence.

[Naughty Cal]

Just out of interest. When you go through West Stockwith lock are you not on the Chesterfield canal and a river only licence no longer covers you? Or does the canal not start till after the basin above the lock?

 

Just curious as it is not something I have thought of before and I am too lazy to go and look it up :-)

 

haggis

I have absolutely no idea but neither the lockies nor CRT staff have flagged it up when we have gone into the basin.

[Mike Todd]

 

 

Oh I dunno. Doesn't the NBTA exist to assist boaters who find it had to understand which box they need to tick?

But does ticking the box necessarily include 'I agree to the T&Cs' ?

[Arthur Marshall]

But trackers would almost do the enforcement automatically.

If mobile phones don't work on half the network, I can't see that trackers will. And enforcement would be ludicrous - they'd have to be bolted to the boat with some kind of security dongle or you'd just unship them and leave them at the mooring if you were charged by distance, or move them about by bike if you wanted to stay put.

[Naughty Cal]

If mobile phones don't work on half the network, I can't see that trackers will. And enforcement would be ludicrous - they'd have to be bolted to the boat with some kind of security dongle or you'd just unship them and leave them at the mooring if you were charged by distance, or move them about by bike if you wanted to stay put.

But trackers work via GPS not mobile phone signal.

 

Our chart plotter, also GPS very rarely loses signal, and if it does it is for seconds.

[Alan de Enfield]

But trackers work via GPS not mobile phone signal.

 

Our chart plotter, also GPS very rarely loses signal, and if it does it is for seconds.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

My GPS is accurate to under 10 metres.

Once the 'anchor alarm' is set a very small movement sets it off, and I have yet to find an area where GPS doesn't work.

 

Even my GPS watch has never failed to find a signal - except indoors.

[Jess--]

Trackers can be configured to store and forward their positions

 

that means while there is no mobile signal for them to upload positions they save them along with the time

when they do get a mobile signal they upload all the saved positions and then finally their current position.

[matty40s]

All you need to do with the tracker would be attach it to a magnet and stick it on a passing boat that looks like its going further than the water point.

[Jess--]

All you need to do with the tracker would be attach it to a magnet and stick it on a passing boat that looks like its going further than the water point.

until someone from crt walks past your boat and finds that your tracker says it's 50 miles away