Electrics - what else do I need/would you recommend

[JJPHG]

Many thanks to those that chipped in on my first postings - I've gone off and done some homework and looking at getting the following;

 

Mastervolt mass combi 12/2200 charger/inverter

8 T-105 Battery bank

BetaGen7

990 W solar array

 

What guages/monitors do I need or would people recommend?

Should I go down the route of twin alternator? If so any advice?

Anything else I should be thinking about?

 

I have some, a little, not much electrical knowledge so will need to do a lot more reading for sure.

Plan on cc'ing most of the time - even in winter

 

Thanks

 

[Paringa]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html

 

A good start...

[Giant]

The BetaGen 7 might be a bit oversized as a generator. It's a 7.2kW unit and that battery charger will only ever use up to 1.5kW. Even with some other loads running at the same time you'd probably never be getting anywhere near that rating.

 

If you were specifically after a 1500rpm unit from a noise and lifetime/reliability perspective then it's true you won't find one much smaller than that (Whisper Power do a 5.7kW that's about the smallest I've seen), but in practice you may be running a fairly big engine unnecessarily.

[JJPHG]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html

 

A good start...

Thanks - tis now bookmarked

The BetaGen 7 might be a bit oversized as a generator. It's a 7.2kW unit and that battery charger will only ever use up to 1.5kW. Even with some other loads running at the same time you'd probably never be getting anywhere near that rating.

 

If you were specifically after a 1500rpm unit from a noise and lifetime/reliability perspective then it's true you won't find one much smaller than that (Whisper Power do a 5.7kW that's about the smallest I've seen), but in practice you may be running a fairly big engine unnecessarily.

True and yes I am thinking noise/reliability, but it is a balance I have yet to work out. I'm also thinking of, dare I say it (with the temperature here 38C at the moment), an air con for those 2 or 3 days a year it gets warm back there.

[dmr]

8 T105's is a big battery bank and will be tedious when you need to top them all up (and possibly measure specific gravities), I only have 6 and that's a bit tedious. At this size of bank a set of full tractions might make more sense.

 

I am not familiar with much of the Northern system as my boat is too long, but down on the K&A where we spend winters a lot of people are living a fairly simple "low impact" sort of lifestyle with a big sense of community. Every year one or two brand new "floating power station" type widebeams arrive and most (but not all) don't really fit in and disappear after a year. I assume they become static marina boats. Why not buy a cheapish second hand narrow boat for a year and explore and get to know the system well before specifying your dream boat?

 

..................Dave

[Robbo]

Many thanks to those that chipped in on my first postings - I've gone off and done some homework and looking at getting the following;

 

Mastervolt mass combi 12/2200 charger/inverter

8 T-105 Battery bank

BetaGen7

990 W solar array

 

What guages/monitors do I need or would people recommend?

Should I go down the route of twin alternator? If so any advice?

Anything else I should be thinking about?

 

I have some, a little, not much electrical knowledge so will need to do a lot more reading for sure.

 

Plan on cc'ing most of the time - even in winter

 

Thanks

 

If you have the space (read height) I would upgrade the trojans to 2v tubular traction batteries.

 

As your main charging source would be either the generator or solar there is no need to have a separate higher amp alternator. Although there is benefits from having two. Your starter battery is one, with the high voltage of traction battery charging the starter battery life is shortened if linked together when charging.. A spiral cell battery eliminates this, but is around 2-3 times the price, and usually not worth it. Bow thruster batteries also benefit from being spiral cell as well.

 

Don't know the make of the generator, but don't go big. Generators are more efficient when under load (75% is good). If you find you an electric item only occasionally requires more than a generator can supply then a charger combi can overcome this by boosting the power (on the Victrons it's called power assist). I have a 4kw genny and is quite ample.

 

Forget air conditioning, you really don't need it in the UK, and when you do you'll be outside anyhow! The colour of the boat is more important and size of windows. A dark colour boat is hot to the touch where a light colour won't be. Windows have solar gain, etc. Air flow for when it's hot to remove the stuffiness is a good idea.

[nicknorman]

Many thanks to those that chipped in on my first postings - I've gone off and done some homework and looking at getting the following;

 

Mastervolt mass combi 12/2200 charger/inverter

8 T-105 Battery bank

BetaGen7

990 W solar array

 

What guages/monitors do I need or would people recommend?

Should I go down the route of twin alternator? If so any advice?

Anything else I should be thinking about?

 

I have some, a little, not much electrical knowledge so will need to do a lot more reading for sure.

 

Plan on cc'ing most of the time - even in winter

 

Thanks

 

For monitoring, there is unfortunately no one device that fits the bill. The best idea is a Smartgauge (good during discharge) and an ammeter measuring current in/out of the domestic bank for knowing when the batteries are fully charged. Since high current ammeters are hard to source, the best way to achieve it is a BMV700 series Ah - counting monitor. With a Smartgauge and a BMV you also have a means to keep an eye on the actual capacity of the batteries.

 

With that generator you don't need a lot of alternator power. If you do consider any sort of alternator upgrade, remember that the belt that drives it is a crucial element. Some engine installations with 2 alternators drive them from one belt, that means the belt wrap is poor and slipping belt or having to over-tighten it (with resultant bearing strain) becomes an issue. I wouldn't want an engine with more than one alternator per belt. Ours has 3 alternators (one is the Travelpower) and 3 drive belts. Two of them, for the TP and large domestic alternator, are flat polyvee belts that can transfer much more power.

Edited February 11, 2017 by nicknorman

[Robbo]

Some reading material..

 

Victron's power book... https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-Energy-Unlimited-EN.pdf

 

Victron generator test. https://www.victronenergy.com/generatortest

 

Nigel Calder book. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/1472946677/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486806185&sr=8-1&keywords=Nigel+calder Make sure it's the 4th edition which is the latest. This is quite advanced, but if your technically minded you'll love it!

[JJPHG]

Nigel Calder book. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/1472946677/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486806185&sr=8-1&keywords=Nigel+calder Make sure it's the 4th edition which is the latest. This is quite advanced, but if your technically minded you'll love it!

 

Brilliant - that's exactly what I need. Thanks

[dmr]

The OP is planning to mostly CC so if he is moving often (not just once every 14 days) then a bigger second alternator makes much sense. It would be crazy to go cruising and still fail to charge the batteries, and then need to run the generator when stopped.

 

................Dave

[nicknorman]

The OP is planning to mostly CC so if he is moving often (not just once every 14 days) then a bigger second alternator makes much sense. It would be crazy to go cruising and still fail to charge the batteries, and then need to run the generator when stopped.

 

................Dave

We don't know what the original alternator is though. Presuming this is a new boat with a modern engine it's likely to have a pretty big alternator(s) as standard.

[JJPHG]

8 T105's is a big battery bank and will be tedious when you need to top them all up (and possibly measure specific gravities), I only have 6 and that's a bit tedious. At this size of bank a set of full tractions might make more sense.

 

....................Why not buy a cheapish second hand narrow boat for a year and explore and get to know the system well before specifying your dream boat?

 

..................Dave

I have to confess I know nothing (yet) about tractions - more learning. As for tedious, well that's part of the benefit of retirement - having the time and patient to do the tedious!

 

Have done about 6 months of navigating the midlands and north in my earlier years (holidays) so have clocked up a few miles, but only in the fairer months. Winter CC'ing (ice permitting) is particularly attractive to me believe it or not. That said, yes I am considering a 'cheap' temporary boat to get used to single locking if nothing else.

We don't know what the original alternator is though. Presuming this is a new boat with a modern engine it's likely to have a pretty big alternator(s) as standard.

 

New yes - looking at Beta 60

[Slim]

How do you intend to control the Mastervolt Combi? If you included a n MICC (circa £450) you would get a shunt based monitor as well.

[JJPHG]

How do you intend to control the Mastervolt Combi? If you included a n MICC (circa £450) you would get a shunt based monitor as well.

 

Thanks - exactly what I was looking for when I posed the question

[Robbo]

I have to confess I know nothing (yet) about tractions - more learning. As for tedious, well that's part of the benefit of retirement - having the time and patient to do the tedious!

Having a relook at that Nigel Calder book it does go into the battery types (I believe you can read this bit on-line in the look inside but on amazon). After saying go for traction, I'm debating with myself to try AGM's! More expensive, but quicker to charge.. hmm. choices. One thing I would recommend is have the height for batteries at around 60cm, you have so much more choice for what ever battery type you go for but the best ones tend to be tall whether AGM or traction.

[JJPHG]

Thanks Robbo - have just downloaded the 4th Ed onto my ipad. It will be good bedtime reading (in a few minutes)

[Richard10002]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html

 

A good start...

Plus a NASA BM2 for the complete monitoring package. And don't forget that when the Smartguage says 100% your batteries aren't "full", hence the NASA.

[Robbo]

Another thing to add for looking at batteries is that connecting in series is better than parallel. Having 8 6v batteries is quite difficult to get the best out of all the batteries due to connecting them limitations, so it's better to go bigger with fewer batteries for the same total capacity. It's why we recommend 2v, as 6 batteries all in series.

[Leon 12]

8 t 105, I have six and I think from what Trojan says anything over three strings its not as good. Series Parallel wiring. I might be wrong.

[WotEver]

8 t 105, I have six and I think from what Trojan says anything over three strings its not as good. Series Parallel wiring. I might be wrong.

I can't imagine that Trojan have said any such thing. I certainly can't think of any reason off the top of my head why they might. There's no reason why you couldn't have 18 of them if you really wanted (although you'd never charge them!)

[Robbo]

I can't imagine that Trojan have said any such thing. I certainly can't think of any reason off the top of my head why they might. There's no reason why you couldn't have 18 of them if you really wanted (although you'd never charge them!)

Rolls recommend not to go over 3 parallel strings as well.

[WotEver]

Rolls recommend not to go over 3 parallel strings as well.

Why?

[Robbo]

Why?

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/plugins/rollsbatteries/pdfs/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf Page 7

NOTE: We do not recommend more than three (3) series strings. Multiple parallel connections will often create uneven resistance between strings, causing an imbalance of charging and discharge currents, resulting in possible cell damage or premature failure.

[WotEver]

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/plugins/rollsbatteries/pdfs/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf Page 7

 

If they're correctly cabled (linked) and the loads are correctly arranged then I can't see how that would be the case. Edited February 11, 2017 by WotEver

[Robbo]

If they're correctly cabled (linked) and the loads are correctly arranged then I can't see how that would be the case.

That does require the same length cabling to each series, much better to avoid if possible. As you know (but others may not) on the smartguage site http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html (method 4) there is a way of cabling 8 6v batteries without busbars, but although it looks good on paper the amount of physical connections to one connection is hard to achieve.

 

Ofcourse using decent size links between the batteries is good and is the bare minimum that should be done (and it's what I would do if I had 8 6v batteries and had no other choice).

Edited February 11, 2017 by Robbo