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Lister JP/JK - too fragile for sea?


flatplane8

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I've been an avid reader of these forums and others, ever since we got our barge with a JP3M in it. I'm now in the process of refreshing an ex-standby JK4 in order to get some more power, to help us to stop better amongst other reasons. Our barge traded on the Humber estuary to the north eastern canals from 1948 when the engine was first installed, to the second JP3 put in during the mid-1980s. That second engine is still in there. The barge was last used commercially in 1993.

 

I like the engines, its a bit of a hobby for me, they have character and seem to be very over engineered for the modest power they produce.

 

I've read recent posts about bearings crumbling through lack of use and cranks snapping and it does make me wonder sometimes if persisting with such an old engine is a good idea. I've measured end float on my JK crank and its as new, so I've left it alone. I know the only way to really know is to take the crank out and look, but then even if they look fine, the main bearings are old in terms of years if not hours run.

 

Our intended use in the future is to go to mainland Europe, so a channel crossing or two will be on the cards in 5-10 years. I appreciate everyone has to judge how far to go with a rebuild themselves and no one can predict when a specific engine might fail. But are these engines just a bit old to be propelling a boat out of sight of land?

 

 

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To me the short answer is no but sometimes mavybe yes. The long answer covers things like the condition of the engine, the standards of repair and maintenance and the quality of the engine installation. One might also want to take into account the operational experience of the engine (the maker and type's reputation if you like). The whole thing is then topped off by the level of personal risk (perceived and real) you are prepared to tolerate and the risk mitigation you might take.

It is a lot easier to analyse specific situations than to provide a one-size-fits-all ( or none!) rule.

 

N

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I agree most are pottering the cut, but would guess that is not because they are/were not reliable at sea. Modern engines are attractive because they are lighter, more powerful and more efficient to start with. They also have spares support. That they do not have longevity like the engines of yore is a consequence of modern production engineering and the throwaway society.

A sound engine, treated well will still be as fit to go to sea with as it was when in its heyday.

 

N

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I think the fact that so many JPs are still going after 50+ years, even when knackered and long overdue for a rebuild, says it all really.

 

Simple, heavily built design with not that much to go wrong and very tolerant of abuse? Sounds like exactly what you want at sea.

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We've taken our JP3M equipped narrowboat across the Wash and down the Severn estuary. It's magnificent - loves the deep water. That said, I always have my fingers mentally crossed – it's an old engine, after all, even though it starts perfectly, has good oil pressure and runs fine it's an elderly machine. But I guess I'd have fingers crossed taking any boat out to sea – all you can do is prepare and be prepared.

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Across The Wash and down The Severn Estuary?

 

I'd be more concerned abut your compass than your engine.

All seriousness aside, I think OP's question is valid for any engine really. I don't think I'd be overly confident in taking a brand spankers out of its crate and then out to sea.

 

Off Topic, but, we know JP was a ​Joint Product with Ruston's. So what's JK?

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Across The Wash and down The Severn Estuary?

 

I'd be more concerned abut your compass than your engine.

All seriousness aside, I think OP's question is valid for any engine really. I don't think I'd be overly confident in taking a brand spankers out of its crate and then out to sea.

 

Off Topic, but, we know JP was a ​Joint Product with Ruston's. So what's JK?

The JK is a slightly higher speed version (1500rpm) that produces more power. For the 4 cylinder one it raises it from 38 to 62hp.

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Do you really want to know? I'd have to get the manuals out

 

Richard

 

Will that include your Anne Summers manuals?

 

 

The JK is a slightly higher speed version (1500rpm) that produces more power. For the 4 cylinder one it raises it from 38 to 62hp.

 

Strewth! that's not "slightly" .......... 38 -62 hp is positively bucket loads more.

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Yes, we go ok with the current 30hp (60-70tons), but stopping takes some planning. Any replacement engine will be run on the rivers round here first, so hopefully any problems will come to light on sheltered waters.

 

I suppose I'm just questioning my choices, as fitting another old engine is my idea. My wife and young son, whilst supportive are more interested in going places on the barge safely, not what propels it.....for some reason I like British engineering, hence British barge, two British cars and the listers. My brother is a die hard air cooled VW fanatic. Must just be the way the DNA dice rolled :)

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To me the short answer is no but sometimes mavybe yes. The long answer covers things like the condition of the engine, the standards of repair and maintenance and the quality of the engine installation. One might also want to take into account the operational experience of the engine (the maker and type's reputation if you like). The whole thing is then topped off by the level of personal risk (perceived and real) you are prepared to tolerate and the risk mitigation you might take.

It is a lot easier to analyse specific situations than to provide a one-size-fits-all ( or none!) rule.

 

N

 

 

There is of course one 'one size fits all' answer: Don't cross the channel alone, go with another boat.

 

That way if either if you runs into trouble, help is immediately to hand.

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The mid length answer from me is that unless you have a crystal ball you wont know how the JP/JK will fair crossing the channel but then that would apply to any boat and any engine of any age. All you can do is ensure your engine and boat is in a good state of repair, carry a set of spares for things that only experience will tell you may need at sea and finally as MtB has said go with another boat or make sure your VHF radio works, carry flares etc etc.

 

As for the age of the engine, that would be of little concern to me if it has been checked over and everything is within tolerance. (don't forget these things ran for many many years in commercial service and wouldnt still be around if they broke every 5 minutes) My concern would only be raised if it had been in there since new, so 60 odd years, had never been apart with unknown service history.

 

If your planning to go once the JK is fitted, then some local trials would be a good idea the shake out any problems.

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Get to know your engine is the main thing. Trail runs, preferably fast, and long to ensure everything is working. After that it's just chance, and I'd put my money on a properly built old engine than a modern engine any day.

 

However these Lister engines were made for long period running, like in gensets and seas.

Edited by mykaskin
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Hi,

 

I guess sometimes, like anyone, I question my choices. I can't recall any sea going boats that still use these engines. Its narrowboats and a few barges. Going across the channel is way off the future, so there would be plenty of local trials. Meanwhile the current JP3m keeps chugging (noisily) along.

 

Simon

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I guess sometimes, like anyone, I question my choices. I can't recall any sea going boats that still use these engines. Its narrowboats and a few barges. Going across the channel is way off the future, so there would be plenty of local trials. Meanwhile the current JP3m keeps chugging (noisily) along.

 

I suspect that's got far more to do with specification and economics than safety.

 

Were there ever many seagoing boats using the JP in the first place? The JP2/JP3 seem to have been a pretty optimal fit for chugging narrowboats and smaller barges around at low speed. Those craft were all limited in size by the waterways, and in speed by legal & practical speed limits on the canals, as well as the economics of fuel.

 

For seagoing craft, those carrying cargo would generally be sized much bigger than the JP range covered, and I would guess that those in other roles would mostly be looking for more speed/power than a 20-30hp engine could supply.

 

Although there are the 4 and 6 cylinder versions kicking around, they seem pretty rare and mostly show up in larger barges.

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I suspect that's got far more to do with specification and economics than safety.

 

Were there ever many seagoing boats using the JP in the first place? The JP2/JP3 seem to have been a pretty optimal fit for chugging narrowboats and smaller barges around at low speed. Those craft were all limited in size by the waterways, and in speed by legal & practical speed limits on the canals, as well as the economics of fuel.

 

For seagoing craft, those carrying cargo would generally be sized much bigger than the JP range covered, and I would guess that those in other roles would mostly be looking for more speed/power than a 20-30hp engine could supply.

 

Although there are the 4 and 6 cylinder versions kicking around, they seem pretty rare and mostly show up in larger barges.

Quite a few JP2M's were fitted to sea going boats....mine is allegedly from a fishing boat which judging from some old corrosion to the outside & internal waterways I've no reason to doubt.

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