Total Newbie (Not even got a boat yet)

[alan_fincher]

I'm on the (closed) K&A Facebook group and one of the posters there really is called Chris Pink. Do you think this is the real one or an impersonator? I thought he was only a legend but maybe he really exists. .

 

...............Dave

 

Oh he definitely exists. I have met him, and his non Internet persona isn't necessarily what you would expect based on his (many!) online ones.

 

Every household has to pay council tax, not every individual. If your only residence is a boat you must pay council tax.

 

https://www.gov.uk/council-tax/who-has-to-pay

 

No, as has been pointed out multiple times, you are misreading this. A genuine CC-er, who does not own a house, has no council tax liabilty. Yes it may seem unfair, but lots of thigs seem (and often are) unfair.

 

Not so. Only someone who owns or rents a property has to pay council tax. Someone who neither owns or rents a house only pays CT if their interest in land (e.g. a mooring) meets the requirements to do so. So a continuous cruiser does not pay CT. Nor, necessarily, does someone on a leisure mooring.

 

^^^^^^ This.

 

However I would counsel OP from placing too much reliance on the testimony of the person selling the boat or running the marina. They both want you to buy a boat, and to rent a mooring.

 

Far better to seek advice from the many people who have lived aboard for years, even if it seems it is hard to get a consensus from them about costs.

My query was tongue-in-cheek, Alan! Though they do, to the best of my knowledge, have a good reputation for reliability, I do recall from stories on here that when they go "boing" they can do so an a thorough and expensive fashion.

 

Not everybody who sells a "fully rebuilt" one has actually done it right, it seems.

[Athy]

 

.

 

 

Not everybody who sells a "fully rebuilt" one has actually done it right, it seems.

I've heard of cases where someone buys a "rebuilt" vintage engine and all that's been rebuilt was the paint.

Though it may cost more in initial outlay, it's probably wise to buy from established and reputable engineers such as Walsh's or Redshaw's, to avoid trouble ahead.

[Psycloud]

Paid a visit to the local marina where this little boat is for sale, very friendly chap who spoke with me that runs the place. He said I can be moored up all year and not leave the marina if I didn't want to, went through all the costs involved such as mooring fees, license, cost of diesel/gas etc so have a clearer idea now of what's involved. Had a good look around the little boat, which was nicely fitted out inside and seemed to have been well cared for (current owner had lived on it for a few years and has moved onto a bigger boat). On reflection I would prefer something a bit bigger as my daughter would be staying with me for between 2 - 5 nights/days a week so a little more space on board would be better, if it was just myself I'd probably go for it. The chap I spoke with said that 2 more boats were going to be available in the coming months, a 44ft and a 50ft. So he said I'm welcome to call back anytime if i have further questions or want to see if any other boats are available to buy.

Feeling a lot more certain now that I know I can stay all year round, the mooring fees, license, fuel, electric will still work out quite a bit less than the house I'm in and I should be in a position to buy outright and have some money to keep aside towards any future work that might be needed.

It was a miserable day, drizzle and cold but I couldn't help but grin whilst being on that little boat, enjoying the moment. Certainly feels like the way forward.

 

I think I know the boat you have been looking at and it is a lovely little thing which I would love to have as a 2nd "holiday" boat but funds won't allow for that luxury.

 

If it's any help I am at the sister Marina to the one you've been looking at, and our first years total costs (diesel, electric, licence, moorings, gas and minor maintenance) was around £5k and that's for a 64' boat.

[alan_fincher]

Though it may cost more in initial outlay, it's probably wise to buy from established and reputable engineers such as Walsh's or Redshaw's, to avoid trouble ahead.

 

Not sure about for Gardners , but there are a few people out there who would challenge one of the names you have listed.

 

This seems to be one of the potential pitfalls of the "vintage" engine restoration world. When we were looking to get our Lister rebuilt, certain names, (not either you have listed), came up in more or less equal amounts as "yes, he certainly knows his stuff - one of the best" and "don't touch him with the proverbial barge pole".

 

It doesn't have to be anything as fancy as Gardners or Kelvins either. One of the standard suppliers of rebuilt BMC B series engines gets praised by some as providing an "as new" engine, whereas others have told horror stories about the same outfit.

[Athy]

Thanks for that cautionary tale, Alan. In a way it's a bit like the legendary "Friday afternoon car" except that rebuilding an old engine takes several weeks so it really shouldn't happen.

I bought my engine from Walsh's. In eleven years it's needed one new starter motor (the first having overheated during a cold winter when the engine was still new and tight) and I've had to rub down and repaint the exterior (ironically, with paint supplied by Redshaw's). Not bad going, I would say.

Regarding BMC/BL engines, I have heard that the experts are Calcutt, who have specialised in them for many years and who used to import new BMCoids from Turkey. They may be more expensive than the competition, I don't know, but as you suggest, it pays in the long run to fit the best.

[Tacet]

 

If you are a CCer you absolutely SHOULD pay council tax. However it is quite impossible to do so since you pay the tax to your local council and there is no mechanism to work out which council's area you were in at what times.

 

 

 

So, should everyone be paying Capital Gains Tax (even if there is no capital gain), Inheritance Tax (with no inheritance), Business Rates (although no interest in business premises), National Insurance, Corporation Tax, Income Tax and all the others to? The income from these pays for services that are generally available.

 

Council tax is a liability on the occupation (and sometimes ownership) of a dwelling hereditament. And a floating boat is not a hereditament. That may or may not be fair, but few of us offer to pay taxes for which we are not liable

 

 

Well firstly your logic is flawed. You should pay CGT, IHT, business rates where there are gains, inheritance, a business in profit. Obviously. By your use of "to"(sic, aka "too"!) your first para resembles the "when did you stop beating your wife" kind of question. The income from those sources does pay for services generally available but that is the nature of our tax system, those with greater gains / income pay a larger proportion even though their usage of said services may well be the same as someone paying a lot less. I think it might be called "socialism".

 

I am not particularly familiar with the term "dwelling hereditament" and sometimes phrases have a specific meaning in law, but a dwelling - well I think we know what that is. And hereditament simply means something that can be inherited. A boat can be both a dwelling and can be inherited so I don't immediately see why your point should be valid. The fact that some residential moorers are liable to and do pay council tax rather suggests that your point is invalid.

 

Apologies for the typo.

 

When you say a CCer absolutely SHOULD pay Council do you mean legally or morally?

 

If you mean morally, few of us offer to pay taxes for which we are not liable.

 

If you mean legally, in order to be liable for Council Tax occupation (or ownership) of a "hereditament" is required. And a boat is not a hereditament for the purposes of Council Tax (if not grammar) - so a CCer who does not occupy a mooring (a mooring can be a hereditament) is not liable for the tax in respect of the boat.

 

No doubt there are some that do have a mooring and dodge Council Tax that is properly due. But the real CCer is not liable - just the same as one is not liable for income/capital gains/inheritance tax unless one has an income/gain/inheritance.

[Peter X]

The 50 footer sounds better as long as its a good boat.

But do take care, you will have NO security, a wobble from the owner, a complaint from a miserable and jealous land based neighbour, or unwelcome attention from the local council, could result in eviction at very short notice. You need to have a plan B.

Daughters, even those that are 100% boat trained, do need a bit of space and privacy at times.

 

.............Dave

I guess these problems do sometimes happen, and that in particular smoke from a stove is the most likely trigger, but with reasonable care it should be unlikely that plan B is needed. But best to have one. Potential objectors should remember the wise words of Han Solo:

 

Han: Let him have it. It’s not wise to upset a Wookiee.

C-3PO: But sir. Nobody worries about upsetting a droid.

Han: That’s cause a droid don’t pull people’s arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.

C-3PO: I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2. Let the Wookiee win.

PS: I would like to apologise to all Wookiees for slightly misspelling their name in an earlier post. Fortunately for me they all lived a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

[haza]

thanks for the kind words mr ross ...

[Wookiee]

 

I think I know the boat you have been looking at and it is a lovely little thing which I would love to have as a 2nd "holiday" boat but funds won't allow for that luxury.

 

If it's any help I am at the sister Marina to the one you've been looking at, and our first years total costs (diesel, electric, licence, moorings, gas and minor maintenance) was around £5k and that's for a 64' boat.

Thank you, local boat owner then :-) £5k per year, around £417 a month is still a lot cheaper than the house I'm in (mortgage alone), other 'savings' such as council tax, gas/electric, house repairs sets up the financial side quite well for me. My soon to be ex went bat sh*t when I said I'd looked at a boat and was considering it as I didn't want to be in the house (too many memories here now), so I'll need to sort the house sale/being bought out first. What I own would fit in my car (I have more tools than anything else) and I've got the offer of a couple of places to stay until I get a boat so feeling a bit more relaxed about it now. The chap at the marina said they would have a couple of bigger boats available in the near future, I think one was a 42ft and the other was slightly bigger so I'd rather wait for something bigger. After getting on board a widebeam I'd go for one of them in a heartbeat, the lounge space was bigger than my house :-)

[nicknorman]

Apologies for the typo.

 

When you say a CCer absolutely SHOULD pay Council do you mean legally or morally?

 

If you mean morally, few of us offer to pay taxes for which we are not liable.

 

If you mean legally, in order to be liable for Council Tax occupation (or ownership) of a "hereditament" is required. And a boat is not a hereditament for the purposes of Council Tax (if not grammar) - so a CCer who does not occupy a mooring (a mooring can be a hereditament) is not liable for the tax in respect of the boat.

 

No doubt there are some that do have a mooring and dodge Council Tax that is properly due. But the real CCer is not liable - just the same as one is not liable for income/capital gains/inheritance tax unless one has an income/gain/inheritance.

I mean morally. Yes, like Starbucks, Google, Apple etc people don't like to pay taxes they do not absolutely have to, whilst being quite happy to enjoy the services paid for by others.

 

You keep saying that a "hereditament" is required to pay CT but you don't explain why you think a boat isn't a dwelling that is a hereditament - since that word just means that it's something that can be inherited, which a boat surely can.

[mrsmelly]

I mean morally. Yes, like Starbucks, Google, Apple etc people don't like to pay taxes they do not absolutely have to, whilst being quite happy to enjoy the services paid for by others.

 

You keep saying that a "hereditament" is required to pay CT but you don't explain why you think a boat isn't a dwelling that is a hereditament - since that word just means that it's something that can be inherited, which a boat surely can.

 

Just to put your mind at rest about this Nick. In the Brexit vote a bloke who lives here on his boat was desperate to vote, he was totaly above board about living on his boat on a permenant though not resi mooring. He jumped thro many hoops and was simply told he had no address and was allowed only to vote as a homeless person. People who live on boats not on resi moorings are homeless so dont pay council tax just like people who are not earning money dont pay income tax or stamp but still use such as the NHS

[nicknorman]

Just to put your mind at rest about this Nick. In the Brexit vote a bloke who lives here on his boat was desperate to vote, he was totaly above board about living on his boat on a permenant though not resi mooring. He jumped thro many hoops and was simply told he had no address and was allowed only to vote as a homeless person. People who live on boats not on resi moorings are homeless so dont pay council tax just like people who are not earning money dont pay income tax or stamp but still use such as the NHS

I'm still not clear about this because the government leaflet that was mentioned suggests that liveaboard boaters should do. All this talk of a dwelling hereditament seems to fit a boat too. Just because the council can't collect the money doesn't mean that it shouldn't in theory be paid. As to your analogy, sorry it doesn't hold water since income tax and NI stamp are only payable on earnings and if you have no earnings you don't pay the tax. If you have a home you pay the CT, if you don't you don't. So it simply boils down to whether the relevant law in theory considers someone living on a boat to have a home or not. The electoral register may use a different system from CT - it's not the poll tax! It would be interesting to see the actual law and not just someone's interpretation of it.

 

Although ultimately why bother, because as we've said, there is no mechanism to allow CT collection!

[mrsmelly]

I'm still not clear about this because the government leaflet that was mentioned suggests that liveaboard boaters should do. All this talk of a dwelling hereditament seems to fit a boat too. Just because the council can't collect the money doesn't mean that it shouldn't in theory be paid. As to your analogy, sorry it doesn't hold water since income tax and NI stamp are only payable on earnings and if you have no earnings you don't pay the tax. If you have a home you pay the CT, if you don't you don't. So it simply boils down to whether the relevant law in theory considers someone living on a boat to have a home or not. The electoral register may use a different system from CT - it's not the poll tax! It would be interesting to see the actual law and not just someone's interpretation of it.

 

Although ultimately why bother, because as we've said, there is no mechanism to allow CT collection!

 

Yes agreed its very weird. I think the govnmt or certainly councils only acknowledge boats as " Dwellings " as and when it may suit them which is probably not very often.

[dmr]

 

Just to put your mind at rest about this Nick. In the Brexit vote a bloke who lives here on his boat was desperate to vote, he was totaly above board about living on his boat on a permenant though not resi mooring. He jumped thro many hoops and was simply told he had no address and was allowed only to vote as a homeless person. People who live on boats not on resi moorings are homeless so dont pay council tax just like people who are not earning money dont pay income tax or stamp but still use such as the NHS

 

Well that is just wrong. Dear Margaret wanted to have "no poll tax no vote" but there were lots of demos so even she backed down and also renamed the poll tax as council tax. A homeless person/boat dweller CAN vote in any place of their choice where they can justify some sort of connection.

This was a dilemma for me as I could show a connection with Southampton, a marginal seat where my vote might just count, but my postal address of convenience is Newbury, a sort of one party state where its not worth voting, but it does make practical sense to be on the electoral role at ones postal address, even if its only a pretend one.

as a historic note, some political observers suggest that the poll tax issue was the beginning of the end for the Thatcher era.

 

................Dave

[rgreg]

 

I think CCers SHOULD pay council tax because they use many of the services that are paid for by it. I suppose the most costly of those is probably schooling. Then there is the upkeep of the local roads and street lighting, libraries, and general amenities of a town. I think the CT also goes to the Social Services budget which is a pretty costly one.

 

You may or may not use any or all of these services a lot or a little, but you will use them to some extent. If I tried to argue that my house council tax should be reduced simply because I have never had any kids in school, don't use the library etc, I think I would get short shrift. The point is that they are available for you to use if you wish.

 

But I absolutely get the point that you can't pay council tax even if you wanted to.

Add to that list Police and Fire & Rescue. Of course everyone should contribute if this was possible.

[cuthound]

Well local councils certainly recognise boats as homes when they pay housing benefit for licences and mooring fees.

[matty40s]

Well local councils certainly recognise boats as homes when they pay housing benefit for licences and mooring fees.

Only because it works out a lot cheaper and easier to keep someone on their boat than set them up in a flat / house.

[mrsmelly]

Well local councils certainly recognise boats as homes when they pay housing benefit for licences and mooring fees.

 

Only because it works out a lot cheaper and easier to keep someone on their boat than set them up in a flat / house.

 

Yes I have heard that though personaly I wouldnt even know where to go to claim any benefits lol. Double standards as usual councils make whatever fit that they want to.

[Alan de Enfield]

I have 'no dog in this fight' but just offer the following from the VOA website.

 

6. Summary of Policy

6.1 The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone’s sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

c) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

My reading of the situation is that a boat is not subject to CT, the mooring to which it attached IS subject to CT, if the 'boats position is sufficiently permanent' then the value of the boat is added to the valuation of the mooring to determine the CT band.

The full 'rules' can be found here :

http://manuals.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_pn/p-ct-man-pn7.html

[Tacet]

I mean morally. Yes, like Starbucks, Google, Apple etc people don't like to pay taxes they do not absolutely have to, whilst being quite happy to enjoy the services paid for by others.

 

You keep saying that a "hereditament" is required to pay CT but you don't explain why you think a boat isn't a dwelling that is a hereditament - since that word just means that it's something that can be inherited, which a boat surely can.

 

Liability for Council Tax stems from the Local Government Finance Act which provides for a tax on a "dwelling" which would have been a “hereditament” under the General Rate Act 1967.

 

The GRA 1967 provides that a hereditament comprises land, houses and mines. A CC-ing boat may well be a dwelling – but it is not a hereditament for Council Tax purposes any more than a tent or a touring caravan or a cardboard box or any other chattel in which a person might reside.

 

The name Council Tax is a bit new-speak as it describes the collecting authority rather than the subject matter of the tax (c.f. income, capital gain, corporation etc). It is essentially a land tax as it is based on the value of land (and anything affixed to that land).

 

If everyone should pay for the services they use, legislation is required to move either to a pay-as-you-go system or more practically, a tax on persons akin to the former Community Charge, which was rather short-lived.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Tacet

[WotEver]

It's just the old fashioned 'rates' under a shiny new name.

[dmr]

It's just the old fashioned 'rates' under a shiny new name.

 

This is just the way of the new world that we live in, don't make anything new, just rename the old things.

...and just to show that I can be politically impartial, it was Blair who renamed the polytechnics as universities to up the university attendance figures.

 

I have heard that a small section of the boat licence fee was allocated to a sort of national community charge to cover such things as use of emergency services by boaters, but have not heard this repeated since BW became CaRT. I guess it was easier when it was BW as it was just words with no real money actually changing hands.

 

.................Dave

[nicknorman]

I have 'no dog in this fight' but just offer the following from the VOA website.

 

 

6. Summary of Policy

6.1 The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone’s sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

c) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

 

My reading of the situation is that a boat is not subject to CT, the mooring to which it attached IS subject to CT, if the 'boats position is sufficiently permanent' then the value of the boat is added to the valuation of the mooring to determine the CT band.

 

The full 'rules' can be found here :

 

http://manuals.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_pn/p-ct-man-pn7.html

Thanks for that link. Chapter and verse which clearly shows that a CCer doesn't have to pay CT. It's a bit more complicated with marinas/permanent moorings.

Liability for Council Tax stems from the Local Government Finance Act which provides for a tax on a "dwelling" which would have been a “hereditament” under the General Rate Act 1967.

 

The GRA 1967 provides that a hereditament comprises land, houses and mines. A CC-ing boat may well be a dwelling – but it is not a hereditament for Council Tax purposes any more than a tent or a touring caravan or a cardboard box or any other chattel in which a person might reside.

 

The name Council Tax is a bit new-speak as it describes the collecting authority rather than the subject matter of the tax (c.f. income, capital gain, corporation etc). It is essentially a land tax as it is based on the value of land (and anything affixed to that land).

 

If everyone should pay for the services they use, legislation is required to move either to a pay-as-you-go system or more practically, a tax on persons akin to the former Community Charge, which was rather short-lived.

I'm convinced. Thanks.

[Tacet]

It's just the old fashioned 'rates' under a shiny new name.

 

Yes it is. When the Major govenernment revoked the Community Charge it went back to a land/property tax but with a few (not always logical) tweaks and a new name to obfuscate the U turn.

[magictime]

it was Blair who renamed the polytechnics as universities to up the university attendance figures.

 

No, it was John Major: they became universities under the Further and Higher Education Act 1992