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Licencing a boat - MUST you own it?


MtB

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Why would C&RT refuse a licence to a 'mate who has fallen on hard times' ? would you not just lend your imaginary friend the money,or, is this just another way of saying has not met requirements of the T&Cs to which he agreed when he accepted his original licence ?

There are no " terms and conditions" except three statutory conditions as set out in the 1995 BW act, please don't propagate CaRT's lie that the licence comes with a contract, it doesn't, the licence is statutory, and the rules of the waterways are the bylaws, nothing else is lawful.

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There are no " terms and conditions" except three statutory conditions as set out in the 1995 BW act, please don't propagate CaRT's lie that the licence comes with a contract, it doesn't, the licence is statutory, and the rules of the waterways are the bylaws, nothing else is lawful.

 

You appear to have missed the point - the three statutory requirements are part of the T&Cs (as are the Bye-laws).

 

Much of the T&Cs are legal requirements, some of them are not..

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This is a hypothetical question but one that often crosses my mind. Worthy of a thread of its own, I thought.

 

Do you have to own a boat in order to apply for a licence for it? Let's imagine my imaginary mate has fallen on hard times and been denied a licence by CRT. Could I licence his boat instead?

 

I'm curious because the obvious parallel is cars. The user and keeper who licences the car does not necessarily own it, in fact the registration document makes this very clear. Similarly, you can apply for planning permission on any plot of land, you don't have to own it. Could (should?) someone who has borrowed a boat long term, say, licence it as the regular user and keeper?

 

What about those renting a boat informally and beyond the fringes of legality? If the boatlord fails to licence it, could the tenant apply instead? Would CRT be on solid legal ground to deny such an application?

 

Just musing really...

 

 

The owner or the person responsible for the boat should apply for the license.

But anyone may pay the license fee.

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The owner or the person responsible for the boat should apply for the license.

But anyone may pay the license fee.

 

 

You presumably have a degree in missing the point?

 

Yes they should. But must they?

 

And now we have three people involved. The owner, the person responsible for the boat and anyone paying the licence fee.

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You presumably have a degree in missing the point?

 

Yes they should. But must they?

 

And now we have three people involved. The owner, the person responsible for the boat and anyone paying the licence fee.

 

Yes ... the applicant must be the owner or the person responsible for the boat.

 

The owner and the person responsible for the boat may be one and the same but not necessarily.

For example my boat is jointly owned with my wife but as far as C&RT are concerned they only know my name.

 

 

 

 

 

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When we had our share boat, it obviously wasn't feasible for CRT to deal with 12 people when licensing the boat.

 

So, we nominated one shareholder to be responsible for all contact with CRT, including paying the licence. We experienced no problems doing this, so I expect that as long as they get paid, CRT and have a contact point, CRT really couldn't care less.

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Still swerving off the point. Can a person entirely unconnected apply to licence a boat? Possibly even against the wishes of the owner (not that that ever seems likely)? Even if the boat is 'under enforcement' in its current stewardship?

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Still swerving off the point. Can a person entirely unconnected apply to licence a boat? Possibly even against the wishes of the owner (not that that ever seems likely)? Even if the boat is 'under enforcement' in its current stewardship?

Can you introduce me to this unconnected person, so he can try paying my licence for me. All in the interests of finding out the answere, obviously :)

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Can you introduce me to this unconnected person, so he can try paying my licence for me. All in the interests of finding out the answere, obviously smile.png

 

 

Imagine, say, your boat is on the brink of being lifted out. CRT are denying you a licence due to your string of failures to comply. Being a Good Samaritan myself and keen to help you out, could I step in and licence your boat for you to save the day, what with you being a good mate and all that? I'd imagine CRT would decline my application, but on what grounds?

 

Just wondering...

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Imagine, say, your boat is on the brink of being lifted out. CRT are denying you a licence due to your string of failures to comply. Being a Good Samaritan myself and keen to help you out, could I step in and licence your boat for you to save the day, what with you being a good mate and all that? I'd imagine CRT would decline my application, but on what grounds?

 

Just wondering...

Why not just give the bloke the money so that he can license it for himself?

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Why not just give the bloke the money so that he can license it for himself?

 

 

Because CRT are refusing him a licence...

Another thought.

 

CRT definitely care about who owns the boat, as they force a new owner to buy a new licence. The boat licence is no longer transferable.

 

I've no idea what I'm arguing here. I think I'd better just drop it!!

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Imagine, say, your boat is on the brink of being lifted out. CRT are denying you a licence due to your string of failures to comply. Being a Good Samaritan myself and keen to help you out, could I step in and licence your boat for you to save the day, what with you being a good mate and all that? I'd imagine CRT would decline my application, but on what grounds?

 

Just wondering...

 

Ah - so the goalposts have now moved.

Previously your 'mate' had 'fallen on hard times', now he has been refused licence renewal on "a string of failures to comply".

 

I believe when this question has been asked, in the past, that the answer was that it is the APPLICANT (not the boat) that is making the application and has to 'satisfy the board'.

Therefore a 'new applicant' with a 'clean history' should be able to granted a licence.

 

I am fairly certain that Nigel Moore gave chapter and verse on this.

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Because CRT are refusing him a licence...

Another thought.

 

CRT definitely care about who owns the boat, as they force a new owner to buy a new licence. The boat licence is no longer transferable.

 

I've no idea what I'm arguing here. I think I'd better just drop it!!

But I suspect that it is the boat, not the person, who is being refused a licence.

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But I suspect that it is the boat, not the person, who is being refused a licence.

 

That being the case, anyone buying a boat from a boater who had 'sold up' due to being unable to meet the criteria and then came under enforcement, would never be able to licence the boat.

 

 

I think it was onion-bargee who last started this subject when he came under enforcement (but I may be wrong)

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Why not just give the bloke the money so that he can license it for himself?

The licence is perhaps a form of surety which the Good Samaritan holds to encourage good behaviour from the boater just saved from certain homelessness? The one power that the licence holder does have is that they (and probably only they and CaRT) can cancel it.

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Because CRT are refusing him a licence...

Another thought.

 

CRT definitely care about who owns the boat, as they force a new owner to buy a new licence. The boat licence is no longer transferable.

 

I've no idea what I'm arguing here. I think I'd better just drop it!!

 

Now you're in danger of touching on an interesting point. CRT's insistence that the licence is terminated and re-applied for is ultra vires.

 

As has been pointed out, it's the boat that is licensed and not the owner.

 

It has yet to be legally challenged (so many transgressions, so little time) but the argument goes something along the lines of; the only reasons CRT can remove consent, i.e. the license, is for breach of Section 17 (4) of the 1995 Act and that through a well-defined and legally binding process. Therefore they cannot remove a license for a change of owner as the boat will presumably still have BSC and new insurance and satisfy, by default, Section 17 iii c.

 

Of course, the seller can remove the license for a refund (before they sell the boat) forcing the new owner to re-apply but that's not the same.

 

Have asserted all this, I would be very interested in Nigel Moore's take on the issue, and my argument.

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There is also the 1983 act sect.7 where a boat that is a danger " to persons...or property" can be , after a long warning process, treated as a section 8. I'm not sure if that revokes a licence, but if your boat is seized you won't need a licence anyway.

 

There is also the fact that CaRT now consider the licence a civil contract whether you like it or not,the senior enforcement supervisor has said in writing exactly that, anyone's licence can be cancelled at any time as a breach of contract, and while that is obviously illegal the boater will still have to fund a court case to get their licence back, the last illegal revocation of a licence i know about took 120+ days to get back, and that was without any CaRT lawyers involved, just the enforcement office.

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Still swerving off the point. Can a person entirely unconnected apply to licence a boat? Possibly even against the wishes of the owner (not that that ever seems likely)? Even if the boat is 'under enforcement' in its current stewardship?

You would first need to obtain insurance as you would not know a valid insurance policy reference.

Then you would need the BSS certificate reference. How would you get that ?

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As we're in the land of the hypothetical, Basic Boat doesn't care about the name of your boat and CRT know whether it has a BSS certificate.

I looked at the Basic Boat website. They do ask for a boat name and registration number.

It would be possible to complete the application , make a payment and obtain an insurance certificate if you put in a valid boat name and number. However the insurance would not be valid unless the true name and address of the owner of the boat was provided. If a name not being the owner is given , and in the event of any claim, the false application would be discovered. A person having no responsibility and no financial interest in the vessel , could not ever have taken out a valid insurance. Not to mention the act of obtaining insurance on property in this way might be considered as obtaining services by deception. A risky course of action with no benefit to anyone.

Accepted the C&RT may well be able to link a current BSS cert with the boat .........on a good day.

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Recent discussions with CRT re EOG mooring licenses on my land for potential unknown boats. Could not be granted until the new boat owner submitted a boat license application form, and under 'Definitions' of words used used in the mooring license application was:

 

‘Owner, you, your, yours’ mean the person(s) or entity named as Owner in this Agreement and
includes an employee of the Owner or a person in charge of the Boat with the Owner’s permission.

 

It appears the application is made in the name of the 'owner' but not necessarily in person.

 

i assume the same definition applies to granting boat licenses.

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