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Licencing a boat - MUST you own it?


MtB

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This is a hypothetical question but one that often crosses my mind. Worthy of a thread of its own, I thought.

 

Do you have to own a boat in order to apply for a licence for it? Let's imagine my imaginary mate has fallen on hard times and been denied a licence by CRT. Could I licence his boat instead?

 

I'm curious because the obvious parallel is cars. The user and keeper who licences the car does not necessarily own it, in fact the registration document makes this very clear. Similarly, you can apply for planning permission on any plot of land, you don't have to own it. Could (should?) someone who has borrowed a boat long term, say, licence it as the regular user and keeper?

 

What about those renting a boat informally and beyond the fringes of legality? If the boatlord fails to licence it, could the tenant apply instead? Would CRT be on solid legal ground to deny such an application?

 

Just musing really...

 

 

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CRT T&C's..

 

1.10 You, your, or yours means the owner or lawful keeper as described in the application or renewal form and includes a person in charge of the Boat with the permission of the owner or lawful keeper. Where a Licence is issued to more than one person the obligations and liabilities under these Conditions will apply to such persons on the basis that their liability is joint and several

 

2.1 The Licence allows you to use the Boat in any Waterway in accordance with these Conditions and only for the purposes specified in the licence descriptions, details of which are set out in Schedule 3.

 

So no.

Edited by Robbo
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Looks like a loophole through which a coach and horses can be driven, should someone wish to mess CRT about over a S8 application then...

 

Yes, CRT's section 8 shenanigans are full of loopholes. If they section 8 your boat you can just buy a new licence (as long as you meet the conditions)

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CRT T&C's.. Quote "1.10 You, your, or yours means the owner or lawful keeper......."

 

 

So no.

 

Without checking, i am certain that is exactly the same as the wording on a road vehicle log book, in which case the answer must be yes.

 

It is my understanding that the lawfull keeper does not have to be the owner, I have stuff in my loft which I do not own but am lawfully keeping it on behalf of my daughter.

Edited by David Schweizer
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Interesting question, we are on EA waters and when we first got this boat Chris did the form filling and found EA would not allow joint ownership so being the smart girl she is, filled in the form in her name but I licence the boat.

The Broads Authority do allow joint ownership ( just threw that in)

Phil

Edited by Phil Ambrose
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Let's imagine my imaginary mate has fallen on hard times and been denied a licence by CRT. Could I licence his boat instead?

 

 

 

 

Why would C&RT refuse a licence to a 'mate who has fallen on hard times' ? would you not just lend your imaginary friend the money,or, is this just another way of saying has not met requirements of the T&Cs to which he agreed when he accepted his original licence ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Interesting question, we are on EA waters and when we first got this boat Chris did the form filling and found EA would not allow joint ownership so being the smart girl she is, filled in the form in her name but I licence the boat.

The Broads Authority do allow joint ownership ( just threw that in)

Phil

 

CRT don't recognise 'ownership' at all

 

There is no official registration of ownership for narrowboats.

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If the boatlord fails to licence it, could the tenant apply instead?

 

Cor! Today's new word, thanks. Better than yesterday's...

 

Though I wonder, if a house has a landlord, shouldn't a boat have a waterlord?

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Looks like a loophole through which a coach and horses can be driven, should someone wish to mess CRT about over a S8 application then...

Which is why enforcement in London is proving so tricky and exhausting for CRT.

 

Perhaps if they used S8 for the reasons it SHOULD be used and tried other methods to

Gain income and ensure boats are licenced and safe, they may find the process easier.

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Without checking, i am certain that is exactly the same as the wording on a road vehicle log book, in which case the answer must be yes.

 

It is my understanding that the lawfull keeper does not have to be the owner, I have stuff in my loft which I do not own but am lawfully keeping it on behalf of my daughter.

To offer Athy another two words: as long as you don't take money or other consideration from your daughter for looking after her stuff, in law you are a "gratuitous bailee". It's important as it means you are not liable in the event of its loss (your house burnt down, say) as long as you took reasonable care of it.

 

Same would apply if you borrow a boat but don't actually pay to hire it, I guess, just get somewhere near back on topic.

  • Greenie 1
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To offer Athy another two words: as long as you don't take money or other consideration from your daughter for looking after her stuff, in law you are a "gratuitous bailee".

How glorious! Thank you so much. Have a gratuitous greeno.

Don't mention "Gratuitous Bailee" in front of Mrs. Athy or she'll think she's getting a free glass of Irish liqueur.

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Plenty of boats are mortgaged, the finance company definitely isn't paying for the licence!!!

 

Really? I thought finance secured on a boat was hard to obtain. I would have thought most boats bought with borrowed money have been through a personal loan (which is not secured on anything other than the borrower's credit record).

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Plenty of boats are mortgaged, the finance company definitely isn't paying for the licence!!!

A good analogy - though are many boats mortgaged? There aren't many companies who lend for boat finance at the moment, so I suspect that the great majority of narrowboats are owned outright.

 

Edited to add: great minds, David.

Edited by Athy
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But surely CRT could still refuse to license a particular boat (e.g. if it was subject to a s.8) regardless of who applies for the licence? I'm struggling to see how having someone other than the owner license it would help.

 

Slight aside, I was somewhat amused by the security and complexity of password CRT require to license online - just to prevent anyone else from paying for my licence!

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But surely CRT could still refuse to license a particular boat (e.g. if it was subject to a s.8) regardless of who applies for the licence? I'm struggling to see how having someone other than the owner license it would help.

 

 

CRT can't refuse to licence a boat that meets the conditions even if it is subject to a section 8.

 

They can refuse to licence a boat that doesn't meet the conditions whoever is trying to licence it.

  • Greenie 1
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Several years ago I had a huge hassle trying to do, what to me seemed a very simple operation. The family owns two boats - a motor and a butty. The idea was for our son to own the butty, with it licensed in his name, and for my wife and me to own the motor. So far so good, but in order to claim the historic discounts, both boats had to be in the same name. Fair enough, I suppose.

 

However, there appeared to be no facility for my son to own the butty and for me to pay the licence and mooring fees. So to keep matters simple, I kept both boats in my name.

 

I've also tried to get the boats registered in the joint names of myself and my wife. Again a brick wall.

 

I've had so many arguments with BW and Cart over the years that I couldn't be bothered to take it any further and so I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

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Several years ago I had a huge hassle trying to do, what to me seemed a very simple operation. The family owns two boats - a motor and a butty. The idea was for our son to own the butty, with it licensed in his name, and for my wife and me to own the motor. So far so good, but in order to claim the historic discounts, both boats had to be in the same name. Fair enough, I suppose.

 

However, there appeared to be no facility for my son to own the butty and for me to pay the licence and mooring fees. So to keep matters simple, I kept both boats in my name.

 

I've also tried to get the boats registered in the joint names of myself and my wife. Again a brick wall.

 

I've had so many arguments with BW and Cart over the years that I couldn't be bothered to take it any further and so I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

If you really want it / them in joint names, just register it on the SSR.

SSR Part 3 is not a 'legal' proof of ownership, (Part 1 is) but part 3 is commonly used as a proof of ownership when entering harbours, & 'foreign parts'.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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However, there appeared to be no facility for my son to own the butty and for me to pay the licence and mooring fees. So to keep matters simple, I kept both boats in my name.

 

 

That is because CRT don't know or care much who owns the boat. They want to know who is responsible for licencing it. I presume that when you tried to register your sons ownership of the boat, you were actually registering him as the responsible keeper. You then went on to tell them that you were the one one responsible for licencing it which confused them. There is no official proof of ownership so if you say your son owns it, your son owns it. You could write up a 'bill of sale; style document stating so if you wanted to make it seem more official. Then register yourself with CRT a the person responsible for licencing.

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CRT don't recognise 'ownership' at all

 

There is no official registration of ownership for narrowboats.

That was the point I was making, CRT don't, EA do but not joint ownership while the Broads Authority accept joint ownership.

Phil

Edited by Phil Ambrose
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