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What to ask for in fitout?


JJPHG

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Hi,

 

First post so apologies for anything stupidly obvious or naive.

 

Currently living in Australia but looking to retire back to the UK in a few years and hitting the canals as a continuous cruiser (many holidays in the past). Looking at fitting out a 60 x 10 (maybe 12) footer and will have about £40,000 to spend. Any suggestions on what I should prioritise?

 

I would like to be as power self sufficient as possible so electrics are high on the list, as would be water storage.

 

For the most part I will be cruising alone so any gadgets out there to help with steering/locks etc as all my previous experience is on narrow-boat rather than wide(er) beam.

 

Thanks

 

 

Colin

 

PS the £40,000 is the fit-out extra's - not the cost of the boat

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I assume you know that continuous cruising on a widebeam is very limited, you can either be down South which is getting pretty busy in places, or up North where its cold and the beer is so rough they can barely give it away, all the best bits only take narrowboats. 60 by 12 is quite a big boat for single handing when you are old and retired.

 

................Dave

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smile.png I'm a 'young' retiree (50's) and believe it or not I miss the cold, frosts and drizzle, so looking at the northern routes. Open to persuasion on the merits of a narrowboat but like the idea of a bit more 'legroom'.

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£40,000 can be a lot, or a little.

 

If you want MDF cupboards and bulkheads, 'sticky-back plastic' work-tops you will spend an awful lot less than having solid wood cabinets and granite work-tops.

Plastic mixer taps will cost considerably less than gold plated 'singles'

Do you want a Jacuzzi bath or a shower ?

What 'domestic appliances' do you want (not need) will determine what size and number of batteries you need.

What 'domestic appliances' do you want (not need) will determine what size of inverter you need (they vary from a few £s to £1000+)

Do you want 'built in' (like a caravan) furniture, or, free standing leather suite ?

 

and so on.

 

You could easily fit out a boat for under £20,000, or if your tastes are more upmarket it may cost you £100,000, there really is no answer to your question.

Only you know what your expectations and aspirations are.

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:) I'm a 'young' retiree (50's) and believe it or not I miss the cold, frosts and drizzle, so looking at the northern routes. Open to persuasion on the merits of a narrowboat but like the idea of a bit more 'legroom'.

Designed properly a narrowboat will have plenty of room and at least you can then enjoy the narrow canals as well which IMO are the best bits.

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Is it just you or a partner too?

I would suggest a narrowboat, if you want space a 70 footer will be much less limiting in cruising range than a fat boat. At some stage in the future you could switch to a fat boat once you know which bits of the system you won't miss.

Early 50's is about the right age to retire from mainstream work.biggrin.png

 

We don't really CC, we just commute between Bristol and Liverpool every year (with major exploratory diversions) and the narrow canals are a real highlight, but then so is the Thames.

 

................Dave

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Thanks all'

 

Alan - I've just download a electrical audit thing and run through what I have/what or would use and it comes up with about 650Ah per day if that helps. The £40000 is for 'extras' my total budget is £150000 so was looking at about £110000 on boat (which I would hope would include worktops and stuff like that) and the rest on 'stuff'.

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Prioritise good spray foam insulation, solar, a good battery bank, possibly a travel pack, plenty of 12v sockets and start looking for 12v alternatives on appliances, from fridges to laptop etc charging, LED lamps. Large s/s water tank. If cc'ing, reckon on minimal 240v for best useage. After that it's choice and preference really. Oh, and 2 centre lines.

....and a good stove....

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Thanks Ally,

 

Pretty much getting a good picture now. One thing I am going around and around with is the size and capacity of the battery bank? I realise it would depend on the space available but that aside is there an optimum number to aim for or is it a case of the more the better - bearing in mind their weight etc?

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Thanks Ally,

 

Pretty much getting a good picture now. One thing I am going around and around with is the size and capacity of the battery bank? I realise it would depend on the space available but that aside is there an optimum number to aim for or is it a case of the more the better - bearing in mind their weight etc?

 

With that much money available, you might want to do some research on the latest lithium batteries. Each one has a much greater capacity than any normal battery, you are supposed to be able to use every bit of power in them (not having to worry about keeping them above fifty per cent), and they recharge in no time. They are expensive though -- the Victron system on the boat which won favourite boat at the Crick show last year cost £15,000. But the batteries are supposed to last at least twenty years.

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Thanks all'

 

Alan - I've just download a electrical audit thing and run through what I have/what or would use and it comes up with about 650Ah per day if that helps. The £40000 is for 'extras' my total budget is £150000 so was looking at about £110000 on boat (which I would hope would include worktops and stuff like that) and the rest on 'stuff'.

650ah a day(presume at 12v) is a lot, most canal boats use around 100ah.

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Thanks all'

 

Alan - I've just download a electrical audit thing and run through what I have/what or would use and it comes up with about 650Ah per day if that helps. The £40000 is for 'extras' my total budget is £150000 so was looking at about £110000 on boat (which I would hope would include worktops and stuff like that) and the rest on 'stuff'.

 

'Fitting out' would normally mean taking an empty shell (maybe even without an engine) and 'fitting' everything into the interior - boats can be purchased as :

Empty Shells

Sail Away (shell + engine+ one battery)

Sailaway plus (as sail away plus insulation, 1st fit electrics & 1st fit plumbing

Basic Fit out (as sail away plus but with kitchen units installed, 2nd fix plumbing and electrics)

and so on and so on until you get a 'finished, fitted out and painted boat'.

 

At what stage of 'finish' are you planning to buy ?

What do you perceive 'fitting out' to include ?

 

I would suggest that you SERIOUSLY review you electrical usage.

A couple of points to remember :

1) The best balance of cost / longevity for batteries is not to let them drop below 50 state of charge. At 650Ah per day you will therefore need to have a battery bank of 1300Ah per day,

2) It is 'normal' to have 3 days (some have more) battery capacity so you are looking having around 4000Ah battery bank, otherwise you will be running your engine for 8 hours+ (example) every day & 30 hours + per day at weekends, even if you decide to stay in a 'nice spot for a few days'.

3) Your battery bank will be costing you in excess of £2000 (for 'cheap' batteries) which may need replacing after (at worst) a couple of months, and at 'best' probably two years. It depends on your understanding of battery management and ability to recharge them frequently to as near 100% SoC as you can. 'Part-charging' batteries will kill them quickly.

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650ah a day(presume at 12v) is a lot, most canal boats use around 100ah.

 

Do UK boats commonly use 12v? All my pleasure boating has been on continental waterways and I've only had working craft of various sorts in the UK, but all the people I know of over here use 24v electrics, with true sine wave inverters to convert to 240v when necessary. On Friesland the domestic batteries are 12 x 650ah 2v cells and this is a fairly common arrangement. A wide beam craft would have ample room for a similar set up.

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On Friesland the domestic batteries are 12 x 650ah 2v cells and this is a fairly common arrangement.

 

But, that is still only 650Ah (at 24v) so retaining the 50% rule* the OP would be 'using' that every day even if all of his appliances were 24v (or via a 24v inverter).

 

The 'problem' appears to be the need for a 'floating flat' rather than a boat. We all know that boating need not be 'camping' or 'living in a cave' but there are limits as to what can be practically achieved.

 

* Edit to add.

I do realise that traction cells can be taken below 50% without much damage, but, the requirement to "fill them back up" remains the same, be they 12v, 24v, cheap leisure, or full traction batteries.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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smile.png I'm a 'young' retiree (50's) and believe it or not I miss the cold, frosts and drizzle, so looking at the northern routes. Open to persuasion on the merits of a narrowboat but like the idea of a bit more 'legroom'.

If you choose the narrow boat route, you could consider taking the width out to the old standard of 7' beam - not a huge increase in width but having owned boats of 6' 10" and 7' it does make a difference. Same with a deeper draft, which has the added benefit of being less restrictive when choosing furniture.

With a large battery installation, make sure that they are easily accessible, assuming that you don't choose maintenance free.

If you have go for a larger water tank, think about position, as a large, empty tank at the front will do little for you on a windy day, but one towards the stern end may assist when navigating shallower canals.

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Is this going to be your first boat other than spending time on cursing holidays?

 

I ask as when considering my own first vessel the BEST advice I was given was "not to buy bespoke (I had similar budget available) as I didn't really know what I needed as opposed to wanted". It probably came from this site. The advice was to buy something that was good enough and then work out what you didn't need and what you really missed. For example I was looking at boats with double ovens, microwaves and coffee machines (was always going to be marina based). I haven't missed ANY of those, there were preconceptions about needs from being land based and glossy magazines.

 

If you've been on lots of canal cursing holidays you may have stayed on some fancy vessels, however I don't think there are a huge amount of them about that are fitted out top notch. So my advice. Buy "good enough" and use it for a while and then if it really is a need for new and bespoke commission it. If you buy well in the first place you shouldn't lose that much money on what you buy (especially if you buy in the North and sell in London).

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Open to persuasion on the merits of a narrowboat

 

This map is all the persuasion I've ever needed that when we buy a boat to live aboard, it should be a narrowboat. I could probably live with being "stuck" up North, but not with being unable to cruise all or most of the Llangollen, the Shropshire Union, the Trent and Mersey, the Macclesfield, the Peak Forest, the Caldon and the Huddersfield Narrow.

 

That's an awful lot of first-rate cruising. And much of what's left involves tidal stretches of river that you may or may not be comfortable with, especially as a single-hander - the Trent, the Ouse, the Ribble Link to the Lancaster.

 

Oh, and in a 60ft widebeam you wouldn't even be able to get through the short locks on the Calder and Hebble, which means you couldn't even do the complete North Pennine Ring (L&L, Bridgewater, Rochdale, C&H, A&C) that would otherwise look like your main cruising area.

 

widebeam_map.png

Edited by magictime
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Do UK boats commonly use 12v? All my pleasure boating has been on continental waterways and I've only had working craft of various sorts in the UK, but all the people I know of over here use 24v electrics, with true sine wave inverters to convert to 240v when necessary. On Friesland the domestic batteries are 12 x 650ah 2v cells and this is a fairly common arrangement. A wide beam craft would have ample room for a similar set up.

 

Most use 12v, some use 24v both have pro's and cons. Using 2v cells (whether to 12v or 24v) is recommended for off-grid liveaboard use. However you said "I've just download a electrical audit thing and run through what I have/what or would use and it comes up with about 650Ah per day if that helps". I think you've missed something in the electrical audit calcs as 650Ah a day (at 12v that is alot, if that is 650Ah @ 24v it is 1300ah at 12v!). Posting your items and calcs here, we can deceipt if wished.

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Think carefully how you will heat the boat in winter. it's good to have several heat sources. A solid fire at one end of the boat is not as useful as one more central. Will you fit a back boiler on the stove? Diesel heaters are good for instant warmth. A diesel stove is more controllable than a solid fuel stove. LPG can be used for heating too. If single handed it might be nice to have the galley aft for a quick brew up.

 

I agree with the suggestion to get a second-hand boat first ad really learn what you will need and what's not necessary. If you can fit a Travel Power and or a cocooned, diesel-generator you will be independent of shore power. A pump out toilet plus a cassette type toilet will also help. Fit plenty of wall-mounted USB sockets fed from the batteries as so many gadgets seem to need them. Get a computer with modest power needs; some laptops have 90W power supplies; my Asus Transformer charges from USB - about 1.5A at 5V!

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Thanks everybody,

 

To answer a few questions, yes it will be my first boat but I think pretty much know what I want (granted that's different from what I need!). I've done quite a lot of 12V living - caravan in Europe and over here our motorhome quite a bit out bush, so 'learnt' what is needed (Air Con and heater for example over here). The 650 is based on everything I could conceivable wish for (Washing Machine, slow cooker, electric heater in the morning etc etc) and my theory is if I work to that then any less used is a bonus. My feeling is that 450 is more likely usage. I do take your point though and certainly will go into the melting pot of consideration.

 

As for the stage of finish - I'm was thinking completely, paint the works mainly because I won't be able to manage or do things from this side of the world (although I do have family back home who could help out) and a complete finish and paint is likely to be easier in one build.

 

I think from the sound of it that to be virtually self sufficient power wise a widebeam is the way to go to accommodate the batteries (I like the sound of the lithium ones) and solar panels needed, but yes, to have access to a greater network narrowboat is a must. More for the old pot.

 

I think I will have to send my sister along to Crick in May!

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Most use 12v, some use 24v both have pro's and cons. ....... I think you've missed something in the electrical audit calcs as 650Ah a day (at 12v that is alot, if that is 650Ah @ 24v it is 1300ah at 12v!). Posting your items and calcs here, we can deceipt if wished.

 

Your point is valid but it was not me who talked of an audit.

 

Tam

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PS - yes I have come to the conclusion that aft galley is for me. Already have a 2kW generator from our motor-home days. Didn't realise about the Pennine Ring. Yet more for the pot

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To answer a few questions, yes it will be my first boat but I think pretty much know what I want (granted that's different from what I need!). I've done quite a lot of 12V living - caravan in Europe and over here our motorhome quite a bit out bush, so 'learnt' what is needed (Air Con and heater for example over here). The 650 is based on everything I could conceivable wish for (Washing Machine, slow cooker, electric heater in the morning etc etc) and my theory is if I work to that then any less used is a bonus. My feeling is that 450 is more likely usage. I do take your point though and certainly will go into the melting pot of consideration.

 

Electric heating and cooking via the batteries is a no no and practically impossible. Scrap the air conditioning, the UK doesn't need it and on the days we do it will be like a cold summer day to you anyhow. Change the automatic "central" heating to diesel/kerosene based (Bubble PJ, Hurricane are good names). Washing machine and other's you would do when you are generating electric via a generator (or maybe even spare solar power) so these can be discounted for day 2 day ah usage. You should be aiming for less than 100-150ah per day @ 12v, (thats 50ah a day @ 24v) unless you want your boat to be a power station or solar farm.

 

This booklet from Victron is really useful and goes into what you should need for different daily power consumptions.. https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-Energy-Unlimited-EN.pdf

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