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Diesel Be Done For?


Sir Percy

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So, I'm watching a (re-run) BBC4 documentary last night on the diesel engine, and there was mention of the fact that at the time, it was thought to be a cleaner fuel than petrol because less CO2 is produced in combustion, however now we know that it produces other noxious substances.

This reminded me of recent news reports about proposed diesel engine bans in four European capital cities because of the dangers of diesel combustion products - particulates, and Nitrogen Oxides (NOx).

The VW scandal also threw a light on diesel emissions.

So could we start to see controls on running diesel engines on static boats in towns and cities?

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Probably not. The amount of NOX generated by boat engines must be miniscule compared to road vehicles.

 

Then there are diesels used as standby generators, construction industry plant etc, which would cause major issues if banned.

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I would think that, in time, diesel engines will be phased out. But as there so many diesel engines around that isn't going to happen any time soon and, of course, that gives the powers that be ample time to find that what they thought "then" has changed "now"

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Think of what may happen in London from 2020, when the new low emission targets come into force for all road vehicles. Do you really think that whom ever may be the mayor at that point will allow any number of possibly dirty diesel engines to be run by boaters ? At the very least I imagine they will introduce a charge/penalty as they plan to do for road vehicles that are not zero rated for emissions . The charge at the moment is expected to be £27 per day, 365 days per year, plus the congestion charge.

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So, I'm watching a (re-run) BBC4 documentary last night on the diesel engine, and there was mention of the fact that at the time, it was thought to be a cleaner fuel than petrol because less CO2 is produced in combustion, however now we know that it produces other noxious substances.
This reminded me of recent news reports about proposed diesel engine bans in four European capital cities because of the dangers of diesel combustion products - particulates, and Nitrogen Oxides (NOx).
The VW scandal also threw a light on diesel emissions.
So could we start to see controls on running diesel engines on static boats in towns and cities?

 

I can see the diesel engine being phased out in cars but the reliance on diesel on lorries and other heavy transport/generators etc. is likely to go on for some time yet. I doubt it will effect boats for a long time although you can never be sure that a piece of legislation has an unintended effect on peripheral use like narrowboats.

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Think of what may happen in London from 2020, when the new low emission targets come into force for all road vehicles. Do you really think that whom ever may be the mayor at that point will allow any number of possibly dirty diesel engines to be run by boaters ? At the very least I imagine they will introduce a charge/penalty as they plan to do for road vehicles that are not zero rated for emissions . The charge at the moment is expected to be £27 per day, 365 days per year, plus the congestion charge.

 

That would clear out some of the 'London congestion' and free up a few moorings.

 

Cannot quite see how it would be implemented / monies collected tho'. - any suggestions ?

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The amount of NOX generated by boat engines must be miniscule compared to road vehicles.

 

 

 

I can see the diesel engine being phased out in cars but the reliance on diesel on lorries and other heavy transport/generators etc. is likely to go on for some time yet. I doubt it will effect boats for a long time although you can never be sure that a piece of legislation has an unintended effect on peripheral use like narrowboats.

 

Legislation? Might also be local authorities imposing regulations. In the comparison of boats and road vehicles, whoever looks at it might also consider that the former aren't contributing anything to their environ and the latter a necessary evil.

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Alan, no suggestions at all for enforcement, however TFL are tricky buggers and I'm sure they would spend a fortune in finding a way !

But do TfL have any jurisdiction over the waterways? I suspect not. They could no more charge a boater for running their engine than they could a house owner running a generator.

 

Some other legislation might cover it, or CRT could be persuaded to come on board, but TfL alone can't do it.

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Yep My German diesel powered estate already uses adblue and is also only 30 quid to tax

 

Guess if the gov are serious about driving diesels off the road then they will just change the duty on diesel and make them expensive to buy and tax

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I find it all very frustrating - the vehicles in London causing most (?) of the pollution and other cities are older buses and HGVs.

Modern cars that comply with the recent legislation - Cat 4, 5 and now the latest cat 6 - these latter are the ones with adBlue are very much less polluting.

However that's not mentioned. Typical Press - don't let positive information spoil a good story.

 

I used to drive petrol cars - but the Gov't said that was antisocial so I had to switch to diesel - now diesel is the bogeyman.....

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Chertsey, have a quick look at TFL web site. They have a "river plan" I know this is EA but they want to get involved. They also have ideas for the canals and as they work hand in hand with the mayors office, both sides would bend over in any direction in the effort to "cut pollution", as they see it. Their favourite method is a big stick. This is sad but after many years of dealing with them, I can only see this going one way.

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You cant see what kills you with diesels even euro 6 are no bette,r in fact they might be worse read the blurb and you know that in ten years both diesel and petrol will be gone. 6 days into the year areas in London were already over the NOX limit for the year shame you all seem to love the thing that will give you a lingering death. I really cant be bothered with blinkered people the new tax bands for 2017 will give you some eye watering shocks in the first year, some up to 5 years and then all £140 thereafter. Only electric vehicles will be exempt that should tell you the direction we are going and it isnt diesel or petrol

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As far as canal boats go, they represent too small a lobby to be effective when compared to the big diesel users, road cars and trucks, and without trucks England would starve -no-one uses horses to get food to consumers.

 

However most boaters could help the situation by not running fume belching engines. I was on a towpath near a Tesco, to collect something from a member and a neighbouring boat was pouring a diesel mist over the water and neighbouring gardens, a clear example of a diesel not actually firing on one cylinder so one fire and one atomised diesel fog coming out.

 

What always interests me is the constant publicity of how bad the pollution is, the air today is so much cleaner than when cars did 24mpg, but the new standards seem to ensure that we CALL it worse.

 

With coal generation decreasing where will all the electricity come from? Shall we buy some more from France?

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Interesting programme. As it said, the 'diesel' is actually a compression ignition engine and if it can compress and ignite something it will run - even if not very well. I wonder if it would run on sawdust or flour? both these (and a lot of other dusts as well) will go bang with a bit of a spark. Theres some out of date Chinese sauce in the kitchen that would probably fire up in an engine as well. I can see some problems with injecting these odd things but I don't think the petrol engine has this multifuel ability. Anyway, I'm in the shed tomorrow trying to split the atom, I reckon that will give me unlimited energy and I won't need those untidy solar panels.

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Interesting programme. As it said, the 'diesel' is actually a compression ignition engine and if it can compress and ignite something it will run - even if not very well. I wonder if it would run on sawdust or flour? both these (and a lot of other dusts as well) will go bang with a bit of a spark. Theres some out of date Chinese sauce in the kitchen that would probably fire up in an engine as well. I can see some problems with injecting these odd things but I don't think the petrol engine has this multifuel ability. Anyway, I'm in the shed tomorrow trying to split the atom, I reckon that will give me unlimited energy and I won't need those untidy solar panels.

 

Haven't watched the program yet, but I have an idea (haven't checked) that the original CI engines (which preceded Diesel even though he gets the credit) were designed to run on coal dust.

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Like dor I also thought diesel experimented with various fuels including coal dust, envisaging his design running on peanut oil. The heavy oil derived fuel we mainly use in them today is the problem not the engine itself. Of course biofuel production is controversial when land is already under ptessure to grow enough food. It was a good programme, that 18500l, 75000hp marine diesel was colossal, two and a half thousand times the power of our Lister Petter lump!

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The classifications of "clean" cars is far from perfect, i seem to see more and more of the latest "clean" cars,bulging out quite a lot of black smoke.

 

This probably happens when the drivers floor their accelerators while they are in a too high gear, and also because most of these "clean" cars have been driven a lot too much in cities, slow driving, traffic jams, short rides, which doesn't help their exhaust gasses filtering systems and they're often in the garage to sort out warning lights that come on every now and again, because of EGR and more serious problems.

 

Myself, I can't afford these "clean" engined new cars, and still drive around in old and even non-turbo engined cars, and one Hdi car, whith an occasional warning light on, which has just been sorted.

 

2 of my old cars have just gone through their french M.O.T. and the guy that did the tests said that their exhaust gasses were clean enough to drive in Paris, but that I couldn't get a sticker to prove that, as they are based on the factories "Euronorm" which is year related.

 

It's rather silly (in my eyes anyway) that an older lower powered car that's in perfect condition, and that's driven without flooring the accelerator isn't allowed to be used in the bigger cities anymore, while a new car say one of the more and more popular "Chelsea Cruisers" that are mainly used for short shopping trips, and never ever off road of course, are allowed to, because they are newer and have passed a better "Euronorm", but blow out a lot more dangerous particules with their much too powerfull engines for city driving.

 

I'm happy that I had the luck of owning, and driving many very fast cars in my younger years, when there were hardly any speed limitations, and when nobody was worried about the possible polution they created.

 

Now I hope that it will last my time before they'll make it impossible for an OAP on a very low pension, to drive his/her old but well maintained car, as buying an electric one is out of the question. (even more because I'm not on shore power, and running a genny to recharge the batteries would be Madness.

 

Peter.

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