Rudder Position Indicator

[Richard X]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have several questions as I'm new to boating and here is one of them.

 

Is a Rudder Position Indicator of any use or useful or a waste of money on a 70 x 12 Eurocruiser with steering wheel?

 

I just need to add the boat hasn't been built yet but will be under construction in a few months so do I need one?

 

Thank you!

 

Richard X

[Alan de Enfield]

The normal solution is to do some fancy 'ropework' at the 12:00 O'clock position on the wheel, when the rudder is central - it is then purely a case of counting the 'turns' of the wheel.

 

Example :

 

 

Or - you could just be a 'pretend boater' and use a bit of insulating tape.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have several questions as I'm new to boating and here is one of them.

 

Is a Rudder Position Indicator of any use or useful or a waste of money on a 70 x 12 Eurocruiser with steering wheel?

 

I just need to add the boat hasn't been built yet but will be under construction in a few months so do I need one?

 

Thank you!

 

Richard X

 

Hi Richard

 

You dont need one on a boat as small as that anyway.

[Albion]

Personally I would fit one. The idea of marking the wheel at the straight ahead position is all well and good except that with hydraulic steering the wheel does not remain in that position forever. If you want to prove what I am saying then take the rudder to one end of its travel and then gently continue to turn and you will find that it will be able to continue thus losing the relative position between centred rudder and centred wheel. This happens in normal use as well without using the technique that I have just described. If you want to set off in the morning and have forgotten where you left the rudder steering angle then you don't need to go from lock to lock and then back halfway each time which might be useful when setting off with a square ended stern as it appears to be when you Google Eurocruiser. I fitted one to my previous EuroClassic boat in France and one was fitted to my present Sagar barge in France and personally I have found it very useful.

Roger

Edited January 23, 2017 by Albion

[cuthound]

If you have a tiller, rather than wheel steering fitted, you will find it comes with a rudder position indicator as standard.

[Alan de Enfield]

Personally I would fit one. The idea of marking the wheel at the straight ahead position is all well and good except that with hydraulic steering the wheel does not remain in that position forever. If you want to prove what I am saying then take the rudder to one end of its travel and then gently continue to turn and you will find that it will be able to continue thus losing the relative position between centred rudder and centred wheel. This happens in normal use as well without using the technique that I have just described. If you want to set off in the morning and have forgotten where you left the rudder steering angle then you don't need to go from lock to lock and then back halfway each time which might be useful when setting off with a square ended stern as it appears to be when you Google Eurocruiser. I fitted one to my previous EuroClassic boat in France and one was fitted to my present Sagar barge in France and personally I have found it very useful.

Roger

 

If you do not keep 'on top of maintenance' then I agree with you.

Keep the system topped up with oil and when you hit the 'stops' the wheel stops moving. If you have air in the system then what you describe does happen.

 

I have 'both' - The 'helm indicator' is in the centre - with the autopilot and the compass, and there is also a small 'blue-badge' on the wheel (currently at about 2:00 o'clock)

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Albion]

 

If you do not keep 'on top of maintenance' then I agree with you.

Keep the system topped up with oil and when you hit the 'stops' the wheel stops moving. If you have air in the system then what you describe does happen.

 

I have 'both' - The 'helm indicator' is in the centre - with the autopilot and the compass, and there is also a small 'blue-badge' on the wheel (currently at about 2:00 o'clock)

 

Versatility-35-13.jpg

Sorry Alan, but I have a Vetus system which is both topped up and has no air in it and the wheel loses position slowly in normal use. There is no springiness at the end of travel that you might expect with air and you suddenly feel much higher resistance to movement but you can, if you maintain gentle pressure, continue to rotate the wheel slowly.

Roger

[dmr]

Are you sure you want a wheel and not a tiller?.

Wheel steering wheels has become very popular on fat boats, I would say almost all recent ones have it, on older boats a tiller is a bit more common.

In some ways a tiller is even more desirable on a fat boat than a narrow one. Imagine yourself heading down the Thames with a just a little bit of flow and trying to line up with one of the several arched bridges you will need to negotiate, it goes a tiny bit wrong and you need to make a last minute urgent correction, which steering method is better?

However If you are getting a Dutch barge style boat with a cabin behind the wheelhouse then a tiller might be less practical!

 

It has also become very common to have the steering wheel right over one side rather than central and I'm not sure about this either. BUT I know nuffin about fat boats really as mine is narrow because I like Birmingham, but I have watched a few new (and not so new) owners appearing to have a hard time steering their fat boats with a wheel.

 

...............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

Sorry Alan, but I have a Vetus system which is both topped up and has no air in it and the wheel loses position slowly in normal use. There is no springiness at the end of travel that you might expect with air and you suddenly feel much higher resistance to movement but you can, if you maintain gentle pressure, continue to rotate the wheel slowly.

Roger

 

Strange - mine is a Vetus and once the chains hit the 'stops', the 'wheel' stops. I guess with some effort ( a lot more than 'gentle effort') could keep-going but it would be so stiff as to very noticeable.

Why would you want to go beyond the 'stops' anyway.

 

I have not noticed any 'slippage' on either the interior, or exterior helm positions except when I was very low on oil and the external helm did 'nothing' - 10 turns of the wheel had zero effect on the rudder.

 

I must admit, in confined waters, that I do tend to steer on the engines as they are much more responsive than the rudder.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Bee]

I wouldn't bother, I have wheel steering and have never missed it, you don't have any indicator on a car or lorry, you just steer the thing. The only time you could conceivably use it is pulling away from a lock wall or jetty and you just steer it away as you would a car. Unless you have 100 turns from lock to lock you will never get confused. If you take the boat to Europe then the chances are that you will be in locks with the wheel hard over and running in gear to keep the boat well into the wall anyway. As for a tendency for hydraulic steering to creep slightly as oil seeps past the pistons, mine does and I reckon most do after a bit of wear, even high compression diesels can be turned over slowly by a spanner on the crank end.

[Richard X]

Ok, thanks for everybody's comments I'll have a think about it and see what the costs are.

[Robbo]

I would fit one as they are useful to see where the rudder is pointing when doing standstill manoeuvres , however do not put it in your field of view as when on the move as you tend to look at it instead of what the boat is doing and straight doesn't mean straight so it will just bug you.

 

To be honest I would remove all gauges from field of view, with Alan's photo above all they do is distract you, put them down the side next to the wheel and use the dash space for navigation stuff whether paper or electronic.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Robbo

[Albion]

 

Strange - mine is a Vetus and once the chains hit the 'stops', the 'wheel' stops. I guess with some effort ( a lot more than 'gentle effort') could keep-going but it would be so stiff as to very noticeable.

Why would you want to go beyond the 'stops' anyway.

 

I have not noticed any 'slippage' on either the interior, or exterior helm positions except when I was very low on oil and the external helm did 'nothing' - 10 turns of the wheel had zero effect on the rudder.

 

I must admit, in confined waters, that I do tend to steer on the engines as they are much more responsive than the rudder.

I merely used that to illustrate how you could demonstrate slippage but it occurs slowly in normal use anyway. I only have one engine on my barge so there is no other steering choice.

Roger

[mross]

Fit one! Very useful when learning a boat's handling and for going astern. Put all gauges where they can be seen so that you don't have to struggle to see them. If you find gauges distracting cover them! Helm should ideally be on the centreline as this makes entering locks much easier.

 

If hydraulic steering drifts that suggests the seal(s) is(are) passing in the helm unit or the actuating cylinder. Or a relief valve is not seating properly.

[Robbo]

It's not that I find gauges distracting, it's just that the bit in front of the wheel can be better used than most gauges even if that's just a place for paper navigation stuff and a cup of tea. I'm planning to have all engine gauges to the side of my wheel on the horizontal surface but inset and slanting up so I can still see them easily if need be. Most switches will be in this area as well, in fact the only ones that will be seperate is the horn and engine stop / start.

[David Mack]

It has also become very common to have the steering wheel right over one side rather than central and I'm not sure about this either. BUT I know nuffin about fat boats really as mine is narrow because I like Birmingham, but I have watched a few new (and not so new) owners appearing to have a hard time steering their fat boats with a wheel.

 

...............Dave

Some years back we spent some time boating with a lovely couple on a pig-ugly square sterned fat boat with a central tiller. The lady was very short and could barely see over the junkladen cabin top. So she had to keep letting go of the tiller to take a look down the cabin side to see where she was going!

[dmr]

Some years back we spent some time boating with a lovely couple on a pig-ugly square sterned fat boat with a central tiller. The lady was very short and could barely see over the junkladen cabin top. So she had to keep letting go of the tiller to take a look down the cabin side to see where she was going!

 

There's a wide boat here on the K&A with a huge collection of large plants on the roof that the owner grows and I assume sells. To drive the boat he puts a plank across the taff rails and stands on this plank to see over his plants, working the tiller with his foot. He looks dead cool.

 

............Dave

[dave moore]

He looks a prat in my book!

 

Dave

[dmr]

He looks a prat in my book!

 

Dave

 

I want to think the same, but some people can stand on a plank of wood, steer with a foot, and have the boat looking to be under full control, whilst others do it just right but appear to have no control at all. Anyway this is the K&A, I think if he did this in Brum he would be a prat, but on the other hand if he got his widebeam into Gas Street he would surely also be a hero.

 

..............Dave

[Tam & Di]

Is a Rudder Position Indicator of any use or useful or a waste of money on a 70 x 12 Eurocruiser with steering wheel?

 

It depends to a large extent on how many turns of the wheel you have from lock to lock. "Friesland" has 16, but it needs that as it is 24m and 80 DWTons with a 6LW Gardner and the steering is mechanical. With that many turns it is a useful guide to rudder position when manoeuvring. I did often have to cover it when we had trainees who tried to use it to steer by rather than looking at where the boat was actually going though. With mechanical linkage there is no slippage between rudder position and wheel so a guage was very cheap and simple.

[Dalslandia]

I have one, in a box somewhere, only time I want one is when leaving the lock before i engage the propeller, and forgot where i have the rudder. have a hydraulic steering with 7.5 turns stop to stop. 41+41 degree on the rudder, when going to 65+65 i will install it.

[NickF]

The Peter le Marchant fat boats I used to steer had a rudder indicator, I found that I never used it, I think after a while on the wheel you get a sixth sense for knowing which way the rudder is.

[Richard X]

The Peter le Marchant fat boats I used to steer had a rudder indicator, I found that I never used it, I think after a while on the wheel you get a sixth sense for knowing which way the rudder is.

Yes, I suppose it's similar to when you first learn to drive, everyone tends to over or under steer but you soon learn and know when and where to turn the wheel, well, most people anyway! :-)

[Albion]

Yes, I suppose it's similar to when you first learn to drive, everyone tends to over or under steer but you soon learn and know when and where to turn the wheel, well, most people anyway! :-)

Nobody needs to use one for routine steering. Wherever did you get that idea from? But there are plenty of other instances when it is handy to have one.

Roger

[Richard X]

Nobody needs to use one for routine steering. Wherever did you get that idea from? But there are plenty of other instances when it is handy to have one.

Roger

I never said I wanted one for routine steering, I just asked if it was worth having one, if yes then I'll get the boat builders to stick one in while their building the boat, if no then I won't bother.

"Hi Everyone,

I have several questions as I'm new to boating and here is one of them.

Is a Rudder Position Indicator of any use or useful or a waste of money on a 70 x 12 Eurocruiser with steering wheel?"