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elex without using a switch from shoreline to inverter


sunho

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Hi Everyone

I know its been covered but,, I want to use the system of plug/s instead of switch to go from shoreline to inverter, I have had narrow boats before but I cant remember the simple old way, is it still legal under BSC? The layout from shoreline to RCB and inverter to RCB can anyone send photos? Obviously its a simple solution to keep them separate by plug system. Also I want to include a Galvanic Isolator into the plan, I know it is through the earth before the RCB. Will it work for both shoreline & inverter. Picture or a sematic plan would help more than word explanations.

Thanks for looking at my post and I know its been covered before but I'm better with photos, I have drawn what I need Shoreline/RCB/Galvanic Isolator/inverter and a socket???

I know its late but I have been scratching my nut for day and ending up with something that would be live if a mistake happened,, Ouch :(

Darren

Edited by sunho
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No pictures handy but the explanation is simple enough...

 

Shoreline socket is wired to the GI and then to a 13A socket mounted on the wall.

 

Inverter output is wired to another 13A socket on the wall, next to the first one.

 

A lead with a plug on it can plug into either of these sockets. The other end of that lead feeds the consumer unit.

Edited by WotEver
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Thanks for reply

WotEver, I find it hard to follow instructions but I think I can cope with that, I'm one of those people that if you told me I cant follow the instructions but if you shown me I remember and wont forget, same when driving take me to a place where I have never been,,, ill take you back to the same spot 10 years later.

Thanks WotEver I'm sure Ill cope with that. funny thing is Ill start from the reverse :)

Edited by sunho
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Hi again

How much room would you recommend for all to be done including inverter, I'm looking at a 1ft wide gap and 2ft long and 3ft high as space needs to be minimal, I'm using a sterling 1800W inverter this will be located in-between a wall.

Cheers people

Edited by sunho
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I hope these photos might help. First one is inverter mode, second in shoreline mode.

 

As you can see I only have a tiddly inverter, for laptop chargers etc rather than hairdryers! The red neon light on the left shows when the system is live, and there is also another one at the other end of the boat.

 

post-13477-0-77840700-1484990421_thumb.jpg

post-13477-0-33173800-1484990437_thumb.jpg

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No pictures handy but the explanation is simple enough...

 

Shoreline socket is wired to the GI and then to a 13A socket mounted on the wall.

 

Inverter output is wired to another 13A socket on the wall, next to the first one.

 

A lead with a plug on it can plug into either of these sockets. The other end of that lead feeds the consumer unit.

This is the same system as we have on Tyto. It was installed by Howard Williams who does the electrical courses for RCR. It is foolproof as you cannot have both supplies connected at the same time. I can't manage a photo as it is in a cupboard with no space to take one.

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Hi again

How much room would you recommend for all to be done including inverter, I'm looking at a 1ft wide gap and 2ft long and 3ft high as space needs to be minimal, I'm using a sterling 1800W inverter this will be located in-between a wall.

Cheers people

Well wires are nice and flexible so you can put things where they look best. I'd suggest the two sockets side by side at the top with the consumer unit alongside then the inverter below.

 

See what layout looks neatest and easy to use, then fix the socket patresses, the consumer unit and the inverter, then run the wires.

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No pictures handy but the explanation is simple enough...

Shoreline socket is wired to the GI and then to a 13A socket mounted on the wall.

Inverter output is wired to another 13A socket on the wall, next to the first one.

A lead with a plug on it can plug into either of these sockets. The other end of that lead feeds the consumer unit.

That works fine if you only want 13 amps total. Very few need more to be fair.

I did mine with the 16 amp blue plugs/ sockets.

 

Some background first.

I have an IP55 splash proof rcd garage consumer unit, 1 x16 amp breaker for 13 Amp sockets 1 x 6 amp breaker for the battery chargers and fridge.

When on inverter only, I have labelled the consumer unit, to remind me to shut off the 6 amp breaker, after all, you don't want to charge batteries that takes the power from an inverter that is taking power from the battery.

 

The galvanic isolator is wired into the consumer unit with a split earth connection in the consumer unit. 1 earth in, to the GI, 1 earth out from the otherside of GI.

So I have a galvanic isolator also in line when the inverter is on. hmmm this is not a requirement, as when you are on inverter, you don't normally have shore power. Electrically it is quite safe, but I can't think why it would need to be different. If anyone can advise if it is wrong then please do. As I say GI on an inverter not a requirement.

 

 

So assuming that the GI issue on the inverter can be accepted as safe, then this is how my system is wired.

 

16 A blue shore line socket enters boat.

It plugs into the consumer unit that has a 16 Amp blue plug . RCD, galvanic isolator mcbs all on line.

 

When on inverter, disconnect shore power, take the lead from the inverter (usually a standard 13A domestic plug socket at the inverter end) this has a blue 16 amp blue socket, on the end of that line. Plug the consumer 16 Amp blue plug into the inverter 16amp blue socket, I switch off the 6 amp breaker, as I explained above.

The Galvanic isolator, the rcd and just the 13 amp circuit breaker are on line, the GI serving no purpose from galvanic corrosion protection point of view, as you have no shore power earth.

 

Now I could rewire it differently so the galvanic isolator was out of the inverter circuit, but I would require possibly more plugs and sockets.

 

Other view points greatfully received.

 

In keeping with the BSS, there is no access to live pins on plugs, the BSS inspector saw this as a fool proof connection, not relying on switches. Currently the BSS only do a visual check, looking at plugs and sockets, they don't check the efficiency of RCDs or trips, to do this they would require expensive test equipment to test leakage currents and how fast rcds and mcbs actually trip.

 

Hope it helps.

Richard

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Hi All

When it comes to 12volt instalment do I have to keep it away from the Mains supply of the boat including all cables? Or can they run along side of each other? I have ordered 2 books. The first being 12 volt bible. The second being Essential boat electrics. Can anyone recommend any other books?

Regards

Darren

 

Edited by sunho
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There is no requirement in the BSS (to the best of my knowledge) to keep 230V and 12V cables separate. However, if there is any possibility of confusing the two it makes good sense to ensure that they're clearly labelled.

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RD1 - With regard to GI connections there is nothing in your installation as described that's 'dangerous' but the usual method of wiring the earth is to have a connection from CU earth busbar direct to the bonding stud on the hull. The GI is fitted adjacent to the shore power input with the incoming Earth connected directly to it and thence to CU (or socket, in this example).

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RD1 - With regard to GI connections there is nothing in your installation as described that's 'dangerous' but the usual method of wiring the earth is to have a connection from CU earth busbar direct to the bonding stud on the hull. The GI is fitted adjacent to the shore power input with the incoming Earth connected directly to it and thence to CU (or socket, in this example).

 

So anything that needs to be earthed can be connected to a bus bar, then to the hull, including the inverter?

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So anything that needs to be earthed can be connected to a bus bar, then to the hull, including the inverter?

Kind of. Your installation will have the inverter feeding a socket as we've previously discussed. The cable that plugs into that socket will go to the three busbars in the CU - Live, Neutral, & Earth. If that cable plugs into the 13A socket that comes from the shore power instead then the earth has already gone through the GI.

 

The CU then has a dual pole RCD plus breakers for sockets, lights, immersion heater etc.

 

Does that make sense?

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RD1 - With regard to GI connections there is nothing in your installation as described that's 'dangerous' but the usual method of wiring the earth is to have a connection from CU earth busbar direct to the bonding stud on the hull. The GI is fitted adjacent to the shore power input with the incoming Earth connected directly to it and thence to CU (or socket, in this example).

Just to inform you, we have a grp hull, and an electric start outboard engine. I did fit an earth stud for future connection if required that is hard wired to battery negative bus bar so it is wired to the chassis of the outboard engine, which is in the water via the electric start cabling.

I need to check, and I might find the outboard and battery negative is insulated from shorepower earth, if it is, then why do I need a galvanic isolator ?

When I did a voltage test with shore power on, there was a voltage differential of 150 mV across the GI.

So maybe I need the GI after all. The other issue is, I need to check the fridge, it is gas, (fridge had a flame trap conversion)12 VDC or 230/240V ac

The fridge casing is earthed to the GI via the 240volt wiring in the Consumer unit, I hope the 12volt dc circuit of the fridge does not use the casing as an earth or supply return, I hope the 12volt supply circuit is insulated from the case. Otherwise I have a bond from battery to mains earth, then I certainly need a GI.

Another thing to check, is the propex warm air heating system, I hope the 12 volt supply to the Propex is insulated from the casing too, as the casing of the propex is connected to the fridge earth, via copper gas pipe.

 

Wow... having talked this through on the forum, I need to do some continuity tests. I was fine up until Oct 2016, as we only used casual shore power, but now we are on 24/7 I still believe the installation is perfectly safe, but how quickly uncertainty can creap in, when you have taken it for granted in the past.

 

I check the anode on the engine monthly, and is showing no signs of any loss, it was new in September 2016.

 

Not easy, but safety MUST come first, saving anodes becomes secondary, but still important. Heavy loss of anodes is usually an indication of earth currents, which may not be the fault of the vessel, but another along side, or heavy steel work nearby.

 

A friend of mine, in a similar GRP boat, had no shore power, he was getting through anodes at an alarming rate on his outboard, a couple per season or more. What he found, was some iron work girders that were part of an old slipway under his boat, rather than move the boat, he now lowers a sacrificial anode near to the engine and electrically bonded to the engine, this has safe guarded the engine anode. I can't explain it as there are no electrical connection between the boat and land, no accidental chains to anchors lol.

 

Stray currents, partially conductive water and dissimilar metals can create all sorts of low circulating currents.

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I Thank you all for the input on the subject, Scholar Gypsy for the photos, RD1 hope you sort it out & there are no problems! Richard T for his fast response and wingman WotEver. The best advice are from those who have experience.

Do I push my luck, I would like to put a water heater in the bathroom/shower room, I would like it to supply hot water for the shower and sink also the kitchen sink, any recommendations an water heaters without the expense and any regs for safety cert to look out for?

Thanks again

Darren

Edited by sunho
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I Thank you all for the input on the subject, Scholar Gypsy for the photos, RD1 hope you sort it out & there are no problems! Richard T for his fast response and wingman WotEver. The best advice are from those who have experience.

Do I push my luck, I would like to put a water heater in the bathroom/shower room, I would like it to supply hot water for the shower and sink also the kitchen sink, any recommendations an water heaters without the expense and any regs for safety cert to look out for?

Thanks again

Darren

I suggest you start a new thread 'water heater' and ask there. It's likely to get way more responses than in this thread.

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No pictures handy but the explanation is simple enough...

 

Shoreline socket is wired to the GI and then to a 13A socket mounted on the wall.

 

Inverter output is wired to another 13A socket on the wall, next to the first one.

 

A lead with a plug on it can plug into either of these sockets. The other end of that lead feeds the consumer unit.

 

I have a Mastervolt12/2500-100 combi, it's an old model and can only be switched to "on", "off" or "remote". This means that when on shore-power I must have the inverter on if I want the charger on.

 

So if the shore-power goes out, the inverter is using the batteries to charge the batteries!

 

I don't think that re-wiring the shore-power, as described in this thread, would help me unless I could rely on my 200w solar to top up the batteries - which I could not rely on in winter.

 

Am I right about this (I have room to re-wire like this)?

 

Thanks.

 

Frank.

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I have a Mastervolt12/2500-100 combi, it's an old model and can only be switched to "on", "off" or "remote". This means that when on shore-power I must have the inverter on if I want the charger on.

 

So if the shore-power goes out, the inverter is using the batteries to charge the batteries!

 

I don't think that re-wiring the shore-power, as described in this thread, would help me unless I could rely on my 200w solar to top up the batteries - which I could not rely on in winter.

 

Am I right about this (I have room to re-wire like this)?

 

Thanks.

 

Frank.

Do you have a link to the instruction manual? I don't believe that MV would have made a box that tries to charge the batteries from inverter output.

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Do you have a link to the instruction manual? I don't believe that MV would have made a box that tries to charge the batteries from inverter output.

The Heart Inverter charger would do just that,it would switch to charge mode upon connection to shore supply

 

When the Shore line is disconnected it will switch back to Invert mode

 

Some older Mastervolt products were rebadged Heart?

 

CT

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The Heart Inverter charger would do just that,it would switch to charge mode upon connection to shore supply

 

When the Shore line is disconnected it will switch back to Invert mode

 

Some older Mastervolt products were rebadged Heart?

 

CT

The bit in bold is what I would expect. The poster suggested that it would stay in charger mode when running as an inverter, which is the opposite, surely?

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I hope these photos might help. First one is inverter mode, second in shoreline mode.

 

As you can see I only have a tiddly inverter, for laptop chargers etc rather than hairdryers! The red neon light on the left shows when the system is live, and there is also another one at the other end of the boat.

 

attachicon.gifDSCF0144.JPG

attachicon.gifDSCF0145.JPG

I am looking at your pictures and am not seeing an RCD in circuit when the supply is fed from the inverter? My understanding is that the 230v system in the boat should be protected by an RCD whatever the power supply.

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I am looking at your pictures and am not seeing an RCD in circuit when the supply is fed from the inverter? My understanding is that the 230v system in the boat should be protected by an RCD whatever the power supply.

 

Thanks, I'll have another think about this, it would be straightforward to add one. My understanding of the BSS is that a RCD is strongly recommended (here).

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I have a Mastervolt12/2500-100 combi, it's an old model and can only be switched to "on", "off" or "remote". This means that when on shore-power I must have the inverter on if I want the charger on.

 

So if the shore-power goes out, the inverter is using the batteries to charge the batteries!

 

I don't think that re-wiring the shore-power, as described in this thread, would help me unless I could rely on my 200w solar to top up the batteries - which I could not rely on in winter.

 

Am I right about this (I have room to re-wire like this)?

 

Thanks.

 

Frank.

 

With the 12 / 2500 / 100 inverter / charger the three position of the switch are on, off and charger.

 

If the switch is left in the charge position if the shore power is lost the inverter will not supplying power to outlet sockets

 

 

Keith

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WotEver,

 

I have a written manual (but it's on the boat), the only on line manual I can find is for a more modern model.

 

The boat was built in 2003 and the inverter has probably been on it since new.

 

I had a thread about this a couple of years ago but can't find it now.

 

Keith,

 

The three positions of switching are as I've said - there is no charger position.

 

Frank.

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Thanks, I'll have another think about this, it would be straightforward to add one. My understanding of the BSS is that a RCD is strongly recommended (here).

I hadn't noticed the lack of RCD when on inverter. Ideally you'd only have one (but there's no real problem with having two) and it would be wired at the end of your flex prior to entering the CU. Even easier, you could use a plug-in one permanently plugged into your inverter output. You're correct that it's only a strong recommendation from BSS but it's recommended for a good reason - your safety :)

 

We've also had reports on here of inspectors (wrongly, we believe) refusing a BSS where they have noticed the absence of one. That probably wouldn't happen in your case as you do have one on the shore power input.

 

Seeing as it would be simple to fit one, and they don't cost much, why not have one?

WotEver,

 

I have a written manual (but it's on the boat), the only on line manual I can find is for a more modern model.

 

The boat was built in 2003 and the inverter has probably been on it since new.

 

I had a thread about this a couple of years ago but can't find it now.

 

Keith,

 

The three positions of switching are as I've said - there is no charger position.

 

Frank.

What does the combo do when the switch is in the 'remote' position?

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