Running Services Through The Hold

[cheshire~rose]

A question to all of you out there who run historic boats with an unconverted hold.

 

Have you any clever ideas how to neatly run gas pipe and electrical wires under the gunwales. We have wiring for water pump, tunnel lamp and horn and the gas pipe. The need to be tucked away so they will not easily get damaged when the hold is being used on maintenance trips.

 

At present we have wood running along the top of the gunwales that has the cloths clamped down to. This wood has been fastened with bolts through the gunwales but the bolts are not long enough inside the hold to use to fix anything to under the gunwales.

 

One way would be to remove all the wood and refix it with longer bolts that would allow a batten of wood under the gunwales so we can fix the services to. I would like to remove, treat and refit the wood with sealant to get rid of a couple of minor seeps that ave developed but this time of year is not the optimum time to do that.

 

Another alternative would be to get some studs welded at regular intervals along the hold so we can fix a battern of wood to that. Nothing is straight! I suspect it was not very straight when built in 1929 but by the time BW did their bit in 1982 it was much worse. I know many of you will have already overcome this problem so if you have photos you can share with me or an explanation I can get my gurls brain around then I would be very grateful thank you very much.

 

 

[David Mack]

On Fulbourne the gunwale iron is about 3 inches wide, buy the wooden cappings are nearer 6 inches wide, so there is space to nail or screw services to the underside of the wood (which is where the gas pipe runs). We do have some electric cables on the inside face of the gunwale capping, but as we are fitted out for camping there isn't really any risk. The water pipe runs under the (removable) floor panels along one side. Being close to the cut it is less vulnerable to freezing there.

[Chertsey]

We've used stick-on cable holders on the underside of the gunnel iron, but that's only to carry the headlamp cable. They're those flat squares of thin metal with cutouts that bend round the cable. They just about hold on. We tried hammering conventional cable clips into the gunnel but the oak was too hard.

 

Gas must be a whole different ball game. Doesn't it freeze on Fulbourne?

 

Maybe adhesive rather than welding or bolting is the way to go to get some batten in place to work off?

Edited January 9, 2017 by Chertsey

[stagedamager]

Timber batten held on with marineflex or polysulphide sealant along the top of the hull works well.

 

Dan

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks folks

 

There are some good suggestions there.

 

We will not be running the water pipe below the floor but I will ensure it can be easily drained down when left in winter.

[luggsy]

What about P clips ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152227380541?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[cheshire~rose]

What about P clips ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152227380541?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

It's how to fasten the P clips to the hull that is the problem - we need to get some timber along there first

[FadeToScarlet]

Oil tunnel lamp, water can, 'arkin 'orn.

 

Sorted!

[cheshire~rose]

Oil tunnel lamp, water can, 'arkin 'orn.

 

Sorted!

 

 

Love it!

 

Keeping 6 -8 volunteers "watered" along with the statutory hand washing facilities required when working with "contaminated water" may need a few cans on cabin top though

[Jrtm]

We have all the power cables and earth cables running in a 2x2 box galvanised steel box runs from engine room to the bow under the starboard side. This is held on but L brackets to the back of the box section then screws into the bottom of the gunwale.

 

The water pipes attach to the bottom of the box. The gas pipe use to run above this when we first designed it but as the gas cooker was shot we removed all gas.

 

As the wires come out the box they have a thick rubber o ring to stop them rubbing on the box.

Forgot to say its all getting painted and a wooden box put over it to hide it all at some point.

But we also have full non electric lighting heating and cooking as well.

[roland elsdon]

If you use battens and adhesive be very careful this had been done on our boat and a couple of years and winters lead to the inevitable hmmm the gas pipes now holding the batten. The only continuous run you get without a knee or butt strap in the way is on the timber that stands behind the iron gunwale. In the end on Atalanta I made this part of a box section and put the gas pipe down one side and the electrics down the other with the gas pipe clipped under the gunwale. Drilling and screwing the pipe clips into the oak was slow and hard work.

[jonesthenuke]

If you do not mind making holes n the metalwork how about self drilling screws? These are relaitively quick to install and work on heavey or light section steel. Then fix P clips, conduit, trunking or whatever you like.

 

Look for "self drilling screw" in Toolstation etc

[cheshire~rose]

We have all the power cables and earth cables running in a 2x2 box galvanised steel box runs from engine room to the bow under the starboard side. This is held on but L brackets to the back of the box section then screws into the bottom of the gunwale.

 

The water pipes attach to the bottom of the box. The gas pipe use to run above this when we first designed it but as the gas cooker was shot we removed all gas.

 

As the wires come out the box they have a thick rubber o ring to stop them rubbing on the box.

Forgot to say its all getting painted and a wooden box put over it to hide it all at some point.

But we also have full non electric lighting heating and cooking as well.

 

That sounds like a good functional fix

If you use battens and adhesive be very careful this had been done on our boat and a couple of years and winters lead to the inevitable hmmm the gas pipes now holding the batten. The only continuous run you get without a knee or butt strap in the way is on the timber that stands behind the iron gunwale. In the end on Atalanta I made this part of a box section and put the gas pipe down one side and the electrics down the other with the gas pipe clipped under the gunwale. Drilling and screwing the pipe clips into the oak was slow and hard work.

 

I suspect the problem could have been the type of adhesive?

 

I would opt to use a proper bonding compound like commonly used when fixing components on cars these days. For example the brass rack on our cabin top that holds the plank etc is bonded on using Sikaflex and it has been there around 5-6 years in all weathers without shifting.

[cheshire~rose]

If you do not mind making holes n the metalwork how about self drilling screws? These are relaitively quick to install and work on heavey or light section steel. Then fix P clips, conduit, trunking or whatever you like.

 

Look for "self drilling screw" in Toolstation etc

 

I would tend not to want to make holes in the hull for anything except those things that require a skin fitting. The underside of the gunwale is seriously uneven and has a thick sandwich of 1929 steel filled with a generous filling of rust in the seam. There have already been bolts drilled through that from the top to hold the timber that keeps the cloths on but the bolts are not long enough to be useful. If we were to go down that route I would say we remove the cloths and the timber and refit the lot using longer bolts. This would be an idea solution apart from the fact that, if we do, the timber needs treating amd the entire lot needs putting back together with some good sealant to stop the little seeps and weeps that you get in rainy weather.

 

This time of year is not ideal to do that and we really want to get on with the fit out

 

Thanks everyone for all your ideas

[roland elsdon]

I used sikaflex on new steel on Fenny when I put timber battens on for bilge wiring and to make a box section to protect the gas pipe. I doubt if it will ever move. However the gunwale angles are another matter because of the massive scaling and missing bits ( she has steel gunwale on top)

Can you put the gas tank at the back of the hold? Might be easier than running vulnerable pipe on wooden gunnel, then run electrics along conduit on keelson spurred off where you need it. Removing and replacing gunwales is a massive job unless you have serious woodworking tools and they never go back because the temptation to de scale the angle changes the shape. I did our boats on the towpath in the 80s and I wouldn't do it again...second time round we put steel on I'm afraid.

[Jrtm]

I used sikaflex on new steel on Fenny when I put timber battens on for bilge wiring and to make a box section to protect the gas pipe. I doubt if it will ever move. However the gunwale angles are another matter because of the massive scaling and missing bits ( she has steel gunwale on top)

Can you put the gas tank at the back of the hold? Might be easier than running vulnerable pipe on wooden gunnel, then run electrics along conduit on keelson spurred off where you need it. Removing and replacing gunwales is a massive job unless you have serious woodworking tools and they never go back because the temptation to de scale the angle changes the shape. I did our boats on the towpath in the 80s and I wouldn't do it again...second time round we put steel on I'm afraid.

Depends if you need to walk near the kelson.

[cheshire~rose]

I used sikaflex on new steel on Fenny when I put timber battens on for bilge wiring and to make a box section to protect the gas pipe. I doubt if it will ever move. However the gunwale angles are another matter because of the massive scaling and missing bits ( she has steel gunwale on top)

Can you put the gas tank at the back of the hold? Might be easier than running vulnerable pipe on wooden gunnel, then run electrics along conduit on keelson spurred off where you need it. Removing and replacing gunwales is a massive job unless you have serious woodworking tools and they never go back because the temptation to de scale the angle changes the shape. I did our boats on the towpath in the 80s and I wouldn't do it again...second time round we put steel on I'm afraid.

 

There has been a gas locker created in the void at the bow. This is a much better solution to the problem of safely housing gas than we had before. I know there will be many eyes being rolled at the thought of such a modification on a historic vessel but this one still has to work and so so we considered this to be an upgrade that was totally reasonable to do when we thought it through using the principles suggested by The National Register for Historic Ships.

 

The gunwale is steel with a timber top. The scaling appears to be mostly sandwiched in the middle of two bits of steel that form the gunwale and the area underneath seems reasonably scale free is somewhat uneven (or else it has so many coats of paint on it that it is not going start flaking any time soon.

[Chertsey]

 

 

 

The gunwale is steel with a timber top.

Any chance of a photo? Is there scope for screwing brackets to the gunnel, hanging down and returning beneath it?

Or by timber top (looking at your earlier posts) do you just mean the cloth batten?

A photo might be really helpful.

[cheshire~rose]

Any chance of a photo? Is there scope for screwing brackets to the gunnel, hanging down and returning beneath it?

Or by timber top (looking at your earlier posts) do you just mean the cloth batten?

A photo might be really helpful.

 

Yes... I have been thinking all through this thread ... if only I had taken a photo.... last time I was there I had left my phone and so didn't get a photo. A picture paints a thousand words and I am not great at explaining what I mean.

 

I am there this weekend so I will get some pictures and share them

[roland elsdon]

Sorry I assumed from your post you had the original gunwale system 3 inch iron and 6 inch timber. Assume the new gunwale is straight on top of the old one rather than a box section made to retain the original height. If so the easiest would be either remove odd bolts through the side cloth batten and replace with longer holding up p clips or simply drill extra holes and bolt through the whole lot with longer bolts. Course if you have the iron angle you already have a perfect conduit. We go through the original holes and hold cables with hi tec zip ties

[cheshire~rose]

I think one of our team has now suggested a way to get around the problem but I managed to get a few photos yesterday so I thought I would just revisit the thread as it seemed only fair as people had been so willing to offer very helpful advise.

 

This photo shows a view from inside the hold:

 

 

To help people understand what they are looking at:

From the top:

The black bit is the cloths, the lighter coloured wooden batten is clamping the bottom edge of the cloths in place on the gunwale (you can make out a small bit of the vinyl that has not been trimmed quite as neatly by the join in the wood.

Below this there is what appears to be two different coloured wooden sections. This is the timber that tops the gunwales along the length of the hold. It has been in situ for around 6-7 years now and most of it is well sealed and does not leak - there are just a couple of places that have develiped a drip since the major work on the hull - hardly surprising knowing how much work was put in to trying to iron out the mis-alignments that had been created when she was shortened in the 80's

The blue bit is the gunwale, as you can see it is a metal sandwich with some scale for filling!

You will see some silver coloured nuts with repair washers underneath the gunwale. These are what is holding the timber onto the gunwale.

The none too elegant convoluted pipe held into place with cable ties below was the jury rigged electrics for horn and tunnel lamp that was installed to get Python home from the boatyard. It is currently redundant but is housing the cable that we will be using and so has been left in place to provide temporary protection to the cable.

 

Lookng again at the side with the knees and the raised rivets I can see that there is no flat area to bond anything to. As I have said before, the easiest solution ought to be to simply replace the bolts through the gunwale with longer ones so we can support the services from them but this would mean us completely removing the cloths to facilitate it - as you can see, they are not fitted in a traditional manner so it is not just a question of untying some ropework. I would like to take them right off and sort that gunwale timber out properly at some point but January is not the month to be trying to achive it, especially when the really pressing job is to get some welfare facilities installed so our crew can brew up and have hot water for the coming summer season.

 

What has now been suggested as a way forward is to replace the nuts on the exisiting bolts through the gunwale with long nuts:

 

So we can add an extension bolt to support some timber which in turn will become a timber conduit to run the services through. This will provide protection to the services but the fascia will be removable for inspection (BSS) or, if at a later date we need to add or change any of it.

[Tuscan]

On our earlier boat - it was just cable ties around the washers/bolts holding up the wire/gas line.

[cheshire~rose]

On our earlier boat - it was just cable ties around the washers/bolts holding up the wire/gas line.

 

I suspect in a craft that is used more for leisure than maintenance that would suffice but with this type of activity it would be far too easy to snag a cable or the gas line with a branch or give it a bash with a tree stump or branch being hauled out and so I want to try and ensure they are protected

 

In this image the trimmings are all very lightweight stuff but that same day we hauled out a dead silver birch which had fallen across the channel, it split in two which made life a bit easier but these guys are wielding grappling hooks and cutting stuff that is as meaty as you would really want to tackle without a chainsaw so a gas pipe can be a bit fragile next to that sort of activity

 

[Jrtm]

If you using it for that sort of thing you need something that will protect the wires so nothing can randomly catch them or snag them as if a twig branch ect get behind it or knocks it its has the potential to just pull it off.

[cheshire~rose]

So we can add an extension bolt to support some timber which in turn will become a timber conduit to run the services through. This will provide protection to the services but the fascia will be removable for inspection (BSS) or, if at a later date we need to add or change any of it.

 

 

If you using it for that sort of thing you need something that will protect the wires so nothing can randomly catch them or snag them as if a twig branch ect get behind it or knocks it its has the potential to just pull it off.

 

 

Yes - that is why the plan is to run it through a conduit as I described in my earlier post