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Gulp! No antifreeze in our Barrus Shire 1950


Froggy

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I don't think we have any antifreeze in our Barrus Shire engine (rusty water by the look of it!). I was hoping to leave draining the coolant until the warmer weather but given the recent cold snap now think this is too risky. From correspondence with Barrus Shire before we even bought the boat I've been led to believe that the engine is a Shire 1950. Could anybody advise where we should drain the existing coolant from and whether it should be refilled by the expansion tank or somewhere else? I'm not at the boat atm so can only offer the two photographs attached from my pc folder. A chandler I bought the antifreeze from said something about draining the coolant from a jacket (i think) that the boat fitter would have fitted but i'm not sure that this exists! Things aren't helped in this respect by the fact that this isn't the original engine, which was a Phoenix 42. According to the boat manual the original engine exhaust system was cooled by water direct from the canal, i'm not sure whether this still applies or is even relevant to adding antifreeze to the engine core since i'm a complete novice with regard to marine engines.

 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, since we're hoping to do the work this Sunday before the next cold snap. If it's a complicated job then we would be happy simply to drain some of the coolant and replace with antifreeze, but given the state of the existing coolant it would probably be better for a complete flush out. Additionally, i've contacted Barrus Shire to see if there exists a .pdf manual for this engine, but in case they don't reply I'd be grateful if anybody here can help with regard to this.

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On our boat I pull off the hose that goes to the bottom of the skin tank, and try and catch the water in an old washing up bowl, inevitably I end up mopping some up from in the bilge!

 

Ours Is a Beta engine, and the expansion tank is on the rocker cover and I just fill it from there. You will need to bleed the skin tank to get the air out once the engine has had an initial run for a few mins.

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Could it just possibly be red antifreeze with some rust.? Get an antifreeze tester to find its concentration, they don't cost much. However even if it is antifreeze, if its rusty it needs replacing soonish.

 

...............Dave

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A chandler I bought the antifreeze from said something about draining the coolant from a jacket (i think) that the boat fitter would have fitted but i'm not sure that this exists!

 

He would have been referring to the skin tank which is on the right of your first photo, with hoses going from the engine to the top and bottom. Easiest way to drain is to disconnect the bottom hose and catch the coolant for disposal as others have said.

 

Bear in mind on refilling via the expansion tank you need to premix antifreeze and water, otherwise with their different densities they won't mix in the engine.

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Froggy-from what I can see from your photo you have a dry exhaust-as I can make out the standard Barrus wrap over exhaust manifold jacket and lagging on the pipe. So yours is a standard keel cooled system.But dont take my word on it as Im only going on what I can see..lol

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On our boat I pull off the hose that goes to the bottom of the skin tank, and try and catch the water in an old washing up bowl, inevitably I end up mopping some up from in the bilge!

 

Ours Is a Beta engine, and the expansion tank is on the rocker cover and I just fill it from there. You will need to bleed the skin tank to get the air out once the engine has had an initial run for a few mins.

 

Thanks John. I'm assuming the expansion tank is the plastic bottle in the second photograph with pipes into the engine? What would be the best way to bleed the skin tank? We don't have a water temperature guage on our control panel, so the only warning that the engine is overheating would be a lamp (assuming it works!). I'm guessing that there will be much more than a bowlful of water to drain and am not sure how we'll dispose of it. We're at a marina and hopefully they will have somewhere in the compound. Somebody told me that if there's practically no antifreeze in the coolant it would be ok to discharge into the canal but i'm a bit reluctant to do this. I'm hoping we can get that bottom pipe off without any problem as from memory it looks a bit rusty.

 

Could it just possibly be red antifreeze with some rust.? Get an antifreeze tester to find its concentration, they don't cost much. However even if it is antifreeze, if its rusty it needs replacing soonish.

 

...............Dave

 

That thought crossed my mind Dave. I did buy a tester as per this link http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/77105/ and it gave no reading. However, the packaging states that it's for ethylene glycol, would red antifreeze require a different kind of tester? Also, i tested when the coolant was cold, is this correct or did i need to heat the engine up first? If it did contain red, i've heard that it doesn't mix with blue, would i be right to assume that a good flush before refilling will negate any potential issues?

 

 

He would have been referring to the skin tank which is on the right of your first photo, with hoses going from the engine to the top and bottom. Easiest way to drain is to disconnect the bottom hose and catch the coolant for disposal as others have said.

 

Bear in mind on refilling via the expansion tank you need to premix antifreeze and water, otherwise with their different densities they won't mix in the engine.

 

Yes, you're right Peter, it was the skin tank, the name now rings a bell. So that's the large red-painted wedge welded into the hull, right? Presumably this then cools the coolant simply by conduction with the colder canal? Thanks for the advice re mixing. What would be the best way to do this for such a large quantity of coolant? I'm guessing a large jug, but better suggestions would be welcome.

 

Froggy-from what I can see from your photo you have a dry exhaust-as I can make out the standard Barrus wrap over exhaust manifold jacket and lagging on the pipe. So yours is a standard keel cooled system.But dont take my word on it as Im only going on what I can see..lol

 

How does this work Paul? I can't get my head around water being sucked up from the canal and then mixing with a hot exhaust. There is reference in the boat manual (for the original engine) to the water passing through a waterlock box where the exhaust gases and water are separated (i haven't got a clue how this is achieved!), plus a mud box and water filter to remove debris. This, i'm assuming, is completely independent of the engine cooling system and doesn't require antifreeze? The manual states (again, for the original engine) that 'the engine core and heat exchanger are filled with a 40% solution of antifreeze' and makes no reference to the skin tank so i'm a little bit confused.

 

Did you try tasting it? Should be biter sweet.

 

You're joking, right? As far as i'm aware it's highly toxic.

Edited by Froggy
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If you can't change the antifreeze straight away then another option would be to get a low powered heater in the engine room.

 

Run it when it is forecast to go cold or even get one with a thermostat to only come on when the temperature dips.

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There are two possible anti-freeze chemistries - one is pink, the other blue - so don't condem the red colour and some do taste sweet.

 

Best to get a hydrometr to check the density of the "water".

 

If there is no a/f, you'll have to work out the coolant volume which could be gallons when the skin tank is included. This is so that you can get the correct dilution, so filling the header bottle up will not be enough.

Edited by jake_crew
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dip your finger in and tasting it is not going to kill you! Then rinse your mouth and wash your hands. I didn't suggest swallowing.

 

Ok, thanks, but it seems a bit risky to me and wouldn't give any indication of the strength of the antifreeze.

There are two possible anti-freeze chemistries - one is pink, the other blue - so don't condem the red colour and some do taste sweet.

 

Best to get a hydrometr to check the density of the "water".

 

If there is no a/f, you'll have to work out the coolant volume which could be gallons when the skin tank is included. This is so that you can get the correct dilution, so filling the header bottle up will not be enough.

 

The chandler reckoned that about 99% narrowboats use blue, but i am of course aware of sod's law. Would i require a different tester for the pink, because the hydrometer i bought states it's specifically for ethylene glycol. Also, given that the blue is cheaper, can i safely put blue in after giving the skin tank a good flush to minimise any potential residue of pink?

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If you can't change the antifreeze straight away then another option would be to get a low powered heater in the engine room.

 

Run it when it is forecast to go cold or even get one with a thermostat to only come on when the temperature dips.

 

Thanks, that might work as a stopgap if we have any problems with changing the coolant this weekend. I have a small electric radiator in storage that would probably do the job.

"Also, given that the blue is cheaper, can i safely put blue in after giving the skin tank a good flush to minimise any potential residue of pink?"

 

yes

 

Thanks. smile.png I guess that, in addition to cost, another good reason for using blue is that it's easier to detect. Also, given the rust in the system i don't think there's much point using an expensive antifreeze that has a longer life. I'd probably be looking to flushing through again before next winter.

Edited by Froggy
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So, just to clarify, the manual states (albeit for the original engine) that 'the engine core and heat exchanger are filled with a 40% solution of antifreeze' and makes no reference to the skin tank, but nonetheless the skin tank is an integral part of the engine cooling system and all the water can be drained and flushed via the two pipes on this, and then presumably the coolant is refilled via the plastic expansion bottle in the second picture?

Edited by Froggy
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So, just to clarify, the manual states (albeit for the original engine) that 'the engine core and heat exchanger are filled with a 40% solution of antifreeze' and makes no reference to the skin tank, but nonetheless the skin tank is an integral part of the engine cooling system and all the water can be drained and flushed via the two pipes on this, and then presumably the coolant is refilled via the plastic expansion bottle in the second picture?

Yes :)

 

Although you say "two pipes". You should only need to disconnect the bottom one to drain it.

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Yes smile.png

 

Thanks. :-)

 

So, i guess there's just one more thing i need to know: how would i bleed any air from the skin tank?

The taste test is just to reassure you that it has some antifreeze in.

 

Thanks. I appreciate your suggestion but think i'll go with flushing out the entire system anyway, as long as we can get the hoses off the skin tank connectors without any issues. I will report back on this thread after the weekend as to what success we had.

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Yes smile.png

 

Although you say "two pipes". You should only need to disconnect the bottom one to drain it.

 

The chandler suggested flushing through the tank with a hose and then putting the hose in the other hole to reverse flush. This seemed to me a good idea given the presence of rust, although i'm not sure how effective it would be unless the whole tank was filled. I'm guessing it could be a bit of a lengthy process.

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The chandler suggested flushing through the tank with a hose and then putting the hose in the other hole to reverse flush. This seemed to me a good idea given the presence of rust, although i'm not sure how effective it would be unless the whole tank was filled. I'm guessing it could be a bit of a lengthy process.

Sounds like a hugely messy job with water everywhere.

 

To bleed the skin tank there should be a bleed screw in the top of it, possibly near where the top hose connects.

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If you are going to flush the system, I would use Ford 10 year antifreeze.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Automotive/Ford-F1336808-Premium-Anti-Freeze-5-Litres/B00G6KBY5I

 

Draining and refilling is an easy but messy DIY job, which I prefer to do less often.

 

My boat, (Beta 43 with skin tank) has a total coolant capacity of 40 litres.

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Also, given the rust in the system i don't think there's much point using an expensive antifreeze that has a longer life. I'd probably be looking to flushing through again before next winter.

 

The ethylene glycol (same antifreeze chemical for all colours) doesn't age. The lifespan of an antifreeze/coolant relates to the life span of the corrosion inhibitors - 2 years for blue, longer for others. Overall cost works out similar for both for the life of the coolant, (maybe a bit cheaper for the longer life stuff overall I've been told). Different anti-corrosion components shouldn't be mixed though, or might lead to chemicals sedimenting out or forming a gel - so your choice depends a bit on how thoroughly you can be bothered to flush.

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Sounds like a hugely messy job with water everywhere.

 

To bleed the skin tank there should be a bleed screw in the top of it, possibly near where the top hose connects.

 

Yeah, you may be right. Maybe i'll leave this until next autumn. Thanks for the advice re. the bleed screw. I'll have a closer look when we get back to the boat tomorrow.

If you are going to flush the system, I would use Ford 10 year antifreeze.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Automotive/Ford-F1336808-Premium-Anti-Freeze-5-Litres/B00G6KBY5I

 

Draining and refilling is an easy but messy DIY job, which I prefer to do less often.

 

My boat, (Beta 43 with skin tank) has a total coolant capacity of 40 litres.

 

Thanks for this, but i've already bought 5 litres of antifreeze from the chandler. I was originally going to do a quick top-up on Wednesday before the forecast subzero temperatures but ran out of daylight and couldn't find a quick way to drain 5 litres out of the system (a syphon in the expansion tank didn't seem to work). Thanks for the advice re skin tank capacity, which ties in with with the chandler suggesting i'd need three or four bottles.

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The ethylene glycol (same antifreeze chemical for all colours) doesn't age. The lifespan of an antifreeze/coolant relates to the life span of the corrosion inhibitors - 2 years for blue, longer for others. Overall cost works out similar for both for the life of the coolant, (maybe a bit cheaper for the longer life stuff overall I've been told). Different anti-corrosion components shouldn't be mixed though, or might lead to chemicals sedimenting out or forming a gel - so your choice depends a bit on how thoroughly you can be bothered to flush.

 

Thanks for the clarification on this. This would then seem to confirm that there is no significant antifreeze in the system so i think i'll take a chance on the blue on the premise that the last owner seems to have taken a lot of shortcuts with quick-fix bodges and is therefore unlikely to have used the dearer stuff. I'll test the antifreeze tester out on some antifreeze from the bottle i've bought first to make sure it's functioning correctly. In a worst case scenario, i guess any gel could cause blockages in the system though, so i'll keep my fingers crossed.

Edited by Froggy
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Thanks John. I'm assuming the expansion tank is the plastic bottle in the second photograph with pipes into the engine? What would be the best way to bleed the skin tank? We don't have a water temperature guage on our control panel, so the only warning that the engine is overheating would be a lamp (assuming it works!). I'm guessing that there will be much more than a bowlful of water to drain and am not sure how we'll dispose of it. We're at a marina and hopefully they will have somewhere in the compound. Somebody told me that if there's practically no antifreeze in the coolant it would be ok to discharge into the canal but i'm a bit reluctant to do this. I'm hoping we can get that bottom pipe off without any problem as from memory it looks a bit rusty.

 

 

 

That thought crossed my mind Dave. I did buy a tester as per this link http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/77105/ and it gave no reading. However, the packaging states that it's for ethylene glycol, would red antifreeze require a different kind of tester? Also, i tested when the coolant was cold, is this correct or did i need to heat the engine up first? If it did contain red, i've heard that it doesn't mix with blue, would i be right to assume that a good flush before refilling will negate any potential issues?

 

 

 

Yes, you're right Peter, it was the skin tank, the name now rings a bell. So that's the large red-painted wedge welded into the hull, right? Presumably this then cools the coolant simply by conduction with the colder canal? Thanks for the advice re mixing. What would be the best way to do this for such a large quantity of coolant? I'm guessing a large jug, but better suggestions would be welcome.

 

 

 

How does this work Paul? I can't get my head around water being sucked up from the canal and then mixing with a hot exhaust. There is reference in the boat manual (for the original engine) to the water passing through a waterlock box where the exhaust gases and water are separated (i haven't got a clue how this is achieved!), plus a mud box and water filter to remove debris. This, i'm assuming, is completely independent of the engine cooling system and doesn't require antifreeze? The manual states (again, for the original engine) that 'the engine core and heat exchanger are filled with a 40% solution of antifreeze' and makes no reference to the skin tank so i'm a little bit confused.

 

 

 

You're joking, right? As far as i'm aware it's highly toxic.

IF your engine was heat exchange cooled you would not be using a skin tank.

The raw river/canal water indirectly cools the engine by passing over the heat exchanger (which would be in the exhaust header) and is then squirted out either mixed with the (wet) exhaust or through a skin fitting through the hull. The raw water would have to be drained as if it froze and split a pipe you could sink the boat! Heat exchanged engines also have to have two water pumps.

Hope this makes sense- like most I much prefer keel cooled engines. :-)

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