Gulp! No antifreeze in our Barrus Shire 1950

[frangar]

Don't just add the new antifreeze neat. It won't mix properly.

 

Best to drain the system and then pre mix in a container as you go. I mark up a clear 5 litre container with a line for antifreeze....then put water in till a few inches from the 5l mark....give it a good shake then top up....then pour into header tank.....

 

Don't forget to make a note of how much the system takes for next time.

 

Gareth

[cuthound]

Don't just add the new antifreeze neat. It won't mix properly.

Best to drain the system and then pre mix in a container as you go. I mark up a clear 5 litre container with a line for antifreeze....then put water in till a few inches from the 5l mark....give it a good shake then top up....then pour into header tank.....

Don't forget to make a note of how much the system takes for next time.

Gareth

An alternative to this method is to fill the system a litre at at time, alternating between water (preferably deionised) and neat antifreeze.

[Alan de Enfield]

Don't just add the new antifreeze neat. It won't mix properly.

 

Best to drain the system and then pre mix in a container as you go. I mark up a clear 5 litre container with a line for antifreeze....then put water in till a few inches from the 5l mark....give it a good shake then top up....then pour into header tank.....

 

Don't forget to make a note of how much the system takes for next time.

 

Gareth

 

But that is only giving you a 1 in 5 mix (20%)

 

A 20% 'mix' only gives protection to -7^o C which is easily achieved in Rural areas (we were -5^oC the other night)

Minimum mix should be 30% with 40%-50% being preferred.

30% will give you around -15^oC protection

[mross]

He didn't actually say where to put the line. The engine manual should be consulted as to the correct concentration to use.

 

http://www.barrus.co.uk/media/2442/rdg603a15-issue-3-shire-30-32-33-35-38-40-45-50-canal-boat-manual.pdf

 

says 50%

[frangar]

 

But that is only giving you a 1 in 5 mix (20%)

 

A 20% 'mix' only gives protection to -7^o C which is easily achieved in Rural areas (we were -5^oC the other night)

Minimum mix should be 30% with 40%-50% being preferred.

30% will give you around -15^oC protection

That's not quite how I meant it! Personally I mark it up at 2 litres & 5 litres. Then 2 litres of antifreeze and 3 litres of water...I meant to say deionised if possible...gives you a 60/40 water/antifreeze which is a good starting point.

 

I just find it a bit easier than using a jug for each measure.

 

Gareth

[Alan de Enfield]

That's not quite how I meant it! Personally I mark it up at 2 litres & 5 litres. Then 2 litres of antifreeze and 3 litres of water...I meant to say deionised if possible...gives you a 60/40 water/antifreeze which is a good starting point.

 

I just find it a bit easier than using a jug for each measure.

 

Gareth

 

Misunderstanding - no problem - perfect method.

[Flyboy]

There is a block drain plug on the Barrus (Yanmar) near the oil filter. You should be able to drain half of the coolant from here.

[reg]

..I meant to say deionised if possible...

Is there any need to use deionised? I never have would be interested to know as I am about to do mine

Thanks in advance

[Arthur Brown]

As a stop gap measure, run the engine! An engine at 70C takes more than overnight to freeze. An hour of running from 7pm to 8pm should satisfy thermal needs and assist the batteries, -which always want more TLC in the winter.

[cuthound]

Is there any need to use deionised? I never have would be interested to know as I am about to do mine

Thanks in advance

If you use tap water, the limescale in it will coat the inside of the engine, just like a kettle. Probably ok for a coolant change or two, but can result in overheating if done every 2 years for a number of years.

[WotEver]

If you use tap water, the limescale in it will coat the inside of the engine, just like a kettle. Probably ok for a coolant change or two, but can result in overheating if done every 2 years for a number of years.

So THAT'S why... I always wondered

[mross]

But if you have soft tap water, no problem.

[dmr]

 

 

That thought crossed my mind Dave. I did buy a tester as per this link http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/77105/ and it gave no reading. However, the packaging states that it's for ethylene glycol, would red antifreeze require a different kind of tester? Also, i tested when the coolant was cold, is this correct or did i need to heat the engine up first? If it did contain red, i've heard that it doesn't mix with blue, would i be right to assume that a good flush before refilling will negate any potential issues?

 

 

 

Ive been trying to learn about antifreeze over the last few days, because as an engineer I just love to understand things. The modern usually red antifreeze is sold as OAT or HOAT which is (Hybrid) Organic Acid Technology (though I have seen other names) but as far as I can deduce it is still Ethylene Glycol and the OAT is just the anti-rust additive. This would make sense as the new stuff lasts for up to 6 years and it is the anti-rust rather than the antifreeze itself that wears out. There are all sorts of other variables like the presence of silicates and nitrites/nitrates.

 

Red and blue might mix, they might not, problem appears to be that they can react to produce a nasty sludge, not worth taking the chance.

 

As an aside my interest in this is because I have a Beta JD3 and John Deere are very specific about what anti freeze goes into their engines, in fact John Deere are probably a leader in anti-freeze chemistry. A secondary but sometimes vital function of anti-freeze is anti-cavitation/liner erosion control and John Deere engines do appear to be prone to this.

 

.................Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

 

As an aside my interest in this is because I have a Beta JD3 and John Deere are very specific about what anti freeze goes into their engines, in fact John Deere are probably a leader in anti-freeze chemistry. A secondary but sometimes vital function of anti-freeze is anti-cavitation/liner erosion control and John Deere engines do appear to be prone to this.

 

.................Dave

 

John Deere are also very specific which hydraulic oil you are 'allowed' to use in their machines - it happens to be their 'own brand' which unsurprisingly is about 3x the cost of the equivalent 'non JD branded' hydraulic oil.

 

I had similar with Volvo hydraulic steering oil (on the boat), the Volvo stuff was £23 for 1 litre, I bought it because I needed it there and then, but then bought a 5 litre can off Ebay (exactly the same specification as quoted on the Volvo can) for £15 (£15 for 5 litres, or, £23 for 1 litre !!!!!!)

[rustydiver]

The taste test is just to reassure you that it has some antifreeze in.

You can't beat the lick test. Ive done it a few times when I've not had a antifreeze tester.

 

Its a bit like testing those little 9v batteries on your tongue.

[mross]

For many years, since the demise of Methanol based antifreeze that was traditionally only added just before winter, blue/green or yellow Monoethylene Glycol (MEG) has been the mainstay of the coolant market. However Ford vehicles since 08/98 have been filled with coolant combining Monoethylene glycol with Organic Additive Technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitors.

 

The two types of coolant should not be mixed. Vehicles filled with MEG will have coolant coloured blue, green or yellow. MEG with OAT additives will have coolant coloured Orange (Ford) or red. (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/?t=19701)

 

Confusingly, there is a third type, Propylene glycol which is dyed pink and is less toxic than ethylene glycol.

[dmr]

 

John Deere are also very specific which hydraulic oil you are 'allowed' to use in their machines - it happens to be their 'own brand' which unsurprisingly is about 3x the cost of the equivalent 'non JD branded' hydraulic oil.

 

I had similar with Volvo hydraulic steering oil (on the boat), the Volvo stuff was £23 for 1 litre, I bought it because I needed it there and then, but then bought a 5 litre can off Ebay (exactly the same specification as quoted on the Volvo can) for £15 (£15 for 5 litres, or, £23 for 1 litre !!!!!!)

 

Yes, John Deere also do their own brand engine oil. Trouble is its so expensive that nobody buys it so nobody stocks it so you cant get it. They do specify longer oil change intervals on the Deere oil as an incentive to buy it, but you still can't get it..

 

Several brands of anti-freeze available in America meet the Deere specification. I am trying to find out if the Halfords stuff (which is rebranded Comma) meets the spec but not making much progress. Deere also sell a "supplementary cooling additive" and again its not easy to get, but I think this just tops up the depleted anti-freeze additive.

 

Its very hard to know what is real and what is just marketing.

 

................Dave

[dmr]

For many years, since the demise of Methanol based antifreeze that was traditionally only added just before winter, blue/green or yellow Monoethylene Glycol (MEG) has been the mainstay of the coolant market. However Ford vehicles since 08/98 have been filled with coolant combining Monoethylene glycol with Organic Additive Technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitors.

 

The two types of coolant should not be mixed. Vehicles filled with MEG will have coolant coloured blue, green or yellow. MEG with OAT additives will have coolant coloured Orange (Ford) or red. (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/?t=19701)

 

Confusingly, there is a third type, Propylene glycol which is dyed pink and is less toxic than ethylene glycol.

 

Except for the John Deere OAT antifreeze which I believe is a greenish yellow, a bit of clever corporate branding?????

 

Worrying stuff on the www about some additives attacking rubber seals, including cylinder liner seals, which is not good.

 

..............Dave

[mross]

I'm going to buy Prestone coolant as it mixes with any type of anti-freeze/coolant.

[reg]

If you use tap water, the limescale in it will coat the inside of the engine, just like a kettle. Probably ok for a coolant change or two, but can result in overheating if done every 2 years for a number of years.

Many thanks for that

I think I'll use some rad flush in, I have 2 bottles sitting around so now seems to be a good time to put them to use, do a refill with tap water mix and then do a proper job in the summer

Thank again for the reply

[dmr]

Many thanks for that

I think I'll use some rad flush in, I have 2 bottles sitting around so now seems to be a good time to put them to use, do a refill with tap water mix and then do a proper job in the summer

Thank again for the reply

 

If you want to be a perfectionist then distilled/de-ionised water is preferable. As said above, tap water is not good but probably fine if you only change everything once every few years. If you have a leaky system that need topping up often then tap water is less good, especially if its hard.

 

.................Dave

[Arthur Brown]

Antifreeze used to have to cope in a system made from cast iron and copper, Now there are iron, steel, mag alloy, aluminium and plastic parts so it's hardly surprising that the corrosion inhibitors need to be appropriate for the engine. And maybe a vintage engine with cast iron and copper pipe needs the old antifreeze!

[Froggy]

IF your engine was heat exchange cooled you would not be using a skin tank.

The raw river/canal water indirectly cools the engine by passing over the heat exchanger (which would be in the exhaust header) and is then squirted out either mixed with the (wet) exhaust or through a skin fitting through the hull. The raw water would have to be drained as if it froze and split a pipe you could sink the boat! Heat exchanged engines also have to have two water pumps.

Hope this makes sense- like most I much prefer keel cooled engines. :-)

 

So now i'm confused again. Can you tell from the photograph of the engine i posted? As previously mentioned, the Barrus Shire we currently have isn't the original engine so i'm not sure what other changes may have been made. As a novice to marine engines i haven't a clue what a heat exchanger, mud box etc. look like. I'm taking it that the consensus is that the red wedge shape at the bottom right of the picture, with two pipes, one above the other, is a skin tank? I had a quick look an hour ago when i got back to the boat and couldn't see a bleed valve, but will have a closer look in daylight tomorrow.

 

I'll respond to other posts tomorrow. Right now, tea is just about ready and i want to settle down for that documentary about Bowie on BBC2.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Froggy

[Eeyore]

This might be of interest

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/pdf_archive/pdfs/product_lit/emea_brochures/LT15108-GB.pdf

[WotEver]

The 'bleed valve' is likely to be nothing more than a bolt screwed through a welded-on nut on the top of the tank.