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Real narrowboat living battle with CRT

narrowboatham

By narrowboatham
in Living Afloat

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MtB Veteran II

MtBDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted (edited)

"Innocent until proved guilty" is indeed a cornerstone of British law. Is there a reason for it to have no validity when applied to CART and boaters?

 

 

Correct, but you are misunderstanding the principle. "Innocent until proven guilty" means just that.

 

People are regularly accused of breaking virtually all areas of the law, often incorrectly. The courts find people "Not Guilty" regularly when those people present a coherent defence.

 

SO how does CRT presenting their (possibly flawed) evidence to a boater that they are not moving constitute finding them "Guilty"? The boater gets ample opportunity to present a coherent defence and avoid being found "Guilty".

 

 

 

(Edit to remove some stray worms.)

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Athy Veteran II

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Posted
Posted

 

 

Correct, but you are misunderstanding the principle. "Innocent until proven guilty" means just that.

 

People are regularly accused of breaking virtually all areas of the law, often incorrectly. The courts find people "Not Guilty" regularly when those people present a coherent defence.

 

SO how does CRT presenting their (possibly flawed) evidence to a boater that they are not moving constitute finding them "Guilty"? The boater gets ample opportunity to present a coherent defence and avoid being found "Guilty".

 

 

 

Sorry, I really don't understand your point. By accusing them, CART are suggesting that they are guilty. Isn't that obvious? Of course, unlike in a court, no jury is involved.

As you know, I have no axe to grind one way or the other, as I am not a continuous cruiser. I'm just interested.

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MtB Veteran II

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Posted

Sorry, I really don't understand your point. By accusing them, CART are suggesting that they are guilty. Isn't that obvious? Of course, unlike in a court, no jury is involved.

 

 

Equally, there is no criminal conviction involved either, which is the term "innocent until proven guilty" refers. Only refusal of a licence.

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Athy Veteran II

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Posted

 

 

Equally, there is no criminal conviction involved either, which is the term "innocent until proven guilty" refers. Only refusal of a licence.

Absolutely: refusal of licence renewal because they consider the boater guilty of infringing regulations.

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MtB Veteran II

MtBDonate to Canal World

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Posted

Absolutely: refusal of licence renewal because they consider the boater guilty of infringing regulations.

 

 

Guilty is the wrong word. As explained before it refers to criminal conviction. CRT may consider what they like but until a court convicts, no-one is 'guilty'. The boater has 'failed to satisfy the board', not been convicted in a court of law, and there is a simple and recognised method of satisfying the board, tell them where you have been!

.

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Wanderer Vagabond Influencer

Wanderer VagabondDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted (edited)

"Innocent until proved guilty" is indeed a cornerstone of British law. Is there a reason for it to have no validity when applied to CART and boaters?

I would say that the point is that if CRT claim that you have failed to satisfy the board then the ball than comes into your court to demonstrate that you have if you want to avoid sanction. There are many people who refuse to give evidence at their own criminal trial relying on the 'innocent until proven guilty' but if no counter is made to the original allegation then conviction is the regular outcome. If the only evidence presented is,'our boat checker says that you've been there for a month' and you just say 'he is wrong' without any supporting evidence even a court would probably find you guilty.

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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lulu fish Collaborator

lulu fish

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Posted

I have no idea how the link you have provided is relevant.

 

The word 'guilty' does not just refer to criminal matters. You can be guilty of something that isn't criminal. Someone can be considered 'guilty' of infringing regulations, just as someone can be guilty of cheating on their partner (not criminal)

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lulu fish Collaborator

lulu fish

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Posted

I have to agree with MtB:

 

Guilt: the fact of having committed a specified or implied offence or crime.

 

Guilty coming from guilty seems to me to require a crime.

guilty
ˈɡɪlti/
adjective
  1. culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing.
    "he was found guilty of manslaughter"
    synonyms: culpable, to blame, blameworthy, blameable, at fault, in the wrong, responsible, answerable, accountable, liable; More
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Paul C Veteran II

Paul C

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Posted

Absolutely: refusal of licence renewal because they consider the boater guilty of infringing regulations.

 

In the same manner, someone who doesn't drive and doesn't hold a driving licence, in your eyes, would be "guilty of not having a licence", or "the DSA consider the person guilty of incompetent driving".

 

Its not so - all it means is they have not satisfied the DSA they're competent to drive, hence they do not have a licence. For millions of people in the UK this is a non-issue, because they don't want/need to drive anyway, or use public transport, etc etc However for a minority they think they're above the law and get a car anyway and drive it around, in doing so they have broken the law, one of them being driving without a licence. In a similar way, plenty of people don't own a boat on the canal network (they might even want to) and have no desire or need for a licence. Others do want a boat on the canals, so they get a licence and have no issues "satisfying the board" to obtain it. A minority want to have their boat on the canals but don't have the licence because they are unable to satisfy the board.

 

Its a bit like people driving around illegally saying "the driving examiner was wrong to fail me on my driving test, I'll drive anyway, I reckon I'm a good driver and can do it without knocking over pedestrians, scaring other motorists or mounting the kerb too often, innocent until proven guilty right?".

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cuthound Veteran II

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Posted (edited)

I really don't see what drinking and driving has got to do with it.

The point being that the legal requirement remains the same, but more effective enforcement reduces the chances of getting away with it.

 

That said, it is a pity that the waterways legislation is written so vaguely. It actually encourages people to test where the boundaries are.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited by cuthound
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MtB Veteran II

MtBDonate to Canal World

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Posted

I have no idea how the link you have provided is relevant.

 

The word 'guilty' does not just refer to criminal matters. You can be guilty of something that isn't criminal. Someone can be considered 'guilty' of infringing regulations, just as someone can be guilty of cheating on their partner (not criminal)

 

 

I didn't realise you were so hard of thinking.

 

Mr Athy was asserting the tenet of English law "Innocent until proven guilty" applies in the case of CRT failing to be 'satisfied'. I was asserting it only applies in criminal trials.

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Athy Veteran II

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No it doesn't.

Quite correct. It can do so, of course, but it doesn't need to. I might feel guilty if I've gone out to do the shopping and have forgotten to buy Mrs. Athy's favourite type of biscuits. But she won't be taking me to court because of it.

 

 

 

 

I hope.

 

In the same manner, someone who doesn't drive and doesn't hold a driving licence, in your eyes, would be "guilty of not having a licence", or "the DSA consider the person guilty of incompetent driving".

 

 

Don't be silly.

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lulu fish Collaborator

lulu fish

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Posted

 

 

I didn't realise you were so hard of thinking.

 

Mr Athy was asserting the tenet of English law "Innocent until proven guilty" applies in the case of CRT failing to be 'satisfied'. I was asserting it only applies in criminal trials.

Put your handbag away.

 

You specifically said "Guilty is the wrong word. As explained before it refers to criminal conviction." which is complete rubbish

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Wanderer Vagabond Influencer

Wanderer VagabondDonate to Canal World

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Quite correct. It can do so, of course, but it doesn't need to. I might feel guilty if I've gone out to do the shopping and have forgotten to buy Mrs. Athy's favourite type of biscuits. But she won't be taking me to court because of it

I think that what you actually mean is that you feel Guilt rather than feeling 'guilty'. Guilt can be an emotion, Guilty is a specific finding by some tribunal whether a Court or any other organisation tasked with making such decisions.

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Athy Veteran II

AthyDonate to Canal World

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When it comes to defining words I think I'll side with the ex-English teacher, not the plumber.

Er, I believe that Mr. Boiler is an engineer rather than a mere pipe-basher. He's certainly an articulate man, and I've had many an enjoyable exchange with him on various language topics. It's just that he is only partially correct in this instance. Guilty MAY refer to a criminal conviction, but it does not have to.

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