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hounddog

Brexit 2017

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29 minutes ago, churchward said:

Again, drivel.  There are more because there is a need.  The people who go there for food would rather not be there and as I said before are sent they just do not turn up.  Also as far as I am concerned the volunteers who manage and distribute these places on the whole would rather be somewhere else too but feel the need to help.  It can be very stressful and like me do it for a while and then have to take a break.

It's not drivel, and I take exception!! I have not suggested that people want to be there, and I agree that all would prefer not to be in such a situation.

How about: There was almost certainly a need for food banks long before 2010, but they obviously didn't exist in any volume - I would suggest that, if they had, they would have been used, just as much as they are today. Somebody clearly recognised that food banks would serve one of the needs created by poverty, as an addition to some of the other charitable and voluntary solutions and, as I have said before, if you build them, they will come, (or be sent, or however they end up getting to be there).

Poverty did not begin in 2010, and there have been a variety of voluntary and charitable ways of helping people suffering because of it for many many years, through governments of all colours.

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17 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Poverty did not begin in 2010, 

I don't think anybody is suggesting poverty began in 2010 but what I see is that poverty has greatly increased since 2010 and the need for ways to alleviate it have also greatly increased.

If we just look at public service jobs since 2010 at best a 1% increase each year (for some a couple of years of no increase at all) with average inflation over that period being 2.74% then obviously their purchasing ability has gone down radically.  Also in the past the "gig" economy and zero hours weren't so prevalent which also add to the number in poverty.

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On 7/13/2017 at 13:55, Richard10002 said:

They may be political issues if you like, but they are cross party issues rather than non existent under Labour, and rife under the Tories. I used extremes, but could equally have said, "rather than less serious under Labour, and more serious under Tory"... I think you know what I am saying.

Better than say, soup kitchens, or similar places where people go to have a meal and get some shelter for a while. With foodbanks, people can collect the food and cook and eat it in their own homes, at a time convenient to them - again, I think you know what I mean.

You can suggest all you like, but I wonder by what measure you are saying they have been made worse. You cant use the increased use of food banks as a measure as the more there are, the more they will be used.

 

What utter rubbish.

 

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19 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

It's not drivel, and I take exception!! I have not suggested that people want to be there, and I agree that all would prefer not to be in such a situation.

How about: There was almost certainly a need for food banks long before 2010, but they obviously didn't exist in any volume - I would suggest that, if they had, they would have been used, just as much as they are today. Somebody clearly recognised that food banks would serve one of the needs created by poverty, as an addition to some of the other charitable and voluntary solutions and, as I have said before, if you build them, they will come, (or be sent, or however they end up getting to be there).

Poverty did not begin in 2010, and there have been a variety of voluntary and charitable ways of helping people suffering because of it for many many years, through governments of all colours.

Still utter rubbish

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20 minutes ago, AMModels said:

Can they categorically state that, if there had been many more food banks previously, they would not have been used? (say between 2000 and 2010). The fact is that the comparison cannot be made, so we are looking at guesses and, sometimes, these guesses just happen to fit the facts.

i think there is a saying along the lines of "if you ask a dozen economists the same question, you will get a dozen different answers ".

What used to happen, pre food banks, to those who are today referred to a food bank? Or was there nobody for whom food banks would have been helpful?

Try this:

scroll down to "Poverty in the UK in the 21st Century" where it seems that poverty fell to 2004/5, and has remained relatively stable since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom

I am not saying that there is no poverty, and I am not saying that it is not an issue. I am merely saying that the rise in the number and use of food banks is probably not an appropriate measure. 

let me remind you that I don't like the Tories, and I don't like Labour, so my agenda is not to spin this politically.

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2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Can they categorically state that, if there had been many more food banks previously, they would not have been used? (say between 2000 and 2010). The fact is that the comparison cannot be made, so we are looking at guesses and, sometimes, these guesses just happen to fit the facts.

i think there is a saying along the lines of "if you ask a dozen economists the same question, you will get a dozen different answers ".

What used to happen, pre food banks, to those who are today referred to a food bank? Or was there nobody for whom food banks would have been helpful?

Try this:

scroll down to "Poverty in the UK in the 21st Century" where it seems that poverty fell to 2004/5, and has remained relatively stable since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom

I am not saying that there is no poverty, and I am not saying that it is not an issue. I am merely saying that the rise in the number and use of food banks is probably not an appropriate measure. 

let me remind you that I don't like the Tories, and I don't like Labour, so my agenda is not to spin this politically.

Poverty has risen, sanctions, changes in payments, gig economy, rising fuel/utility prices. Even the tories accept poverty has risen, they changed the way poverty is defined in order to ameliorate the rise.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/16/child-poverty-in-uk-at-highest-level-since-2010-official-figures-show

http://www.cpag.org.uk/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN07096

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/graham-peebles/austerity-and-rise-of-poverty-in-britain

https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/work-poverty-hits-record-high-housing-crisis-fuels-insecurity

https://www.trusselltrust.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/01/Below-the-Breadline-The-Trussell-Trust.pdf

https://www.gaslightingcampaign.co.uk/pages/the-facts-about-child-poverty

 

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7 minutes ago, AMModels said:

I haven't said that poverty has fallen, and I only pointed you at the Wikipedia entry to show that there are alternative sources of information to the LSE stuff, which can lead to different conclusions.

i haven't looked at all of your links, life is too short.

all I said was that I don't think that the demand for food banks is a good measure of poverty, because their use would probably have been just as high if they had existed before they existed. There is no way of knowing whether I'm right or wrong, because they didn't exist, so there is no comparison to be made.

People like the LSE etc can make their guesses, but they are with the benefit of hindsight.

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18 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I haven't said that poverty has fallen, and I only pointed you at the Wikipedia entry to show that there are alternative sources of information to the LSE stuff, which can lead to different conclusions.

i haven't looked at all of your links, life is too short.

all I said was that I don't think that the demand for food banks is a good measure of poverty, because their use would probably have been just as high if they had existed before they existed. There is no way of knowing whether I'm right or wrong, because they didn't exist, so there is no comparison to be made.

People like the LSE etc can make their guesses, but they are with the benefit of hindsight.

Hindsight is also known as evidence. Its what comes from happening after the fact.

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45 minutes ago, AMModels said:

Hindsight is also known as evidence. Its what comes from happening after the fact.

The fact that there is no evidence of the use of foodbanks prior to them coming into existence, (in any kind of numbers), is not really evidence that they were not needed and would not have been used, thus hindsight is not evidence in this case. You seem to be stating categorically that they would not have been welcomed or used prior to about 2010, I am saying that they probably would - nobody will ever know the actual answer because we cannot turn the clock back and see what would have happened had they existed. We cannot test whether what I am saying is "drivel", or, "utter rubbish", so it is wrong to describe it as such... it is definitely possible, and maybe probable.

I cant really say what I am saying in any other ways, so you can take it or leave it, (leave it I guess :) )... I dont really mind either way.

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20 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

The fact that there is no evidence of the use of foodbanks prior to them coming into existence, (in any kind of numbers), is not really evidence that they were not needed and would not have been used, thus hindsight is not evidence in this case. You seem to be stating categorically that they would not have been welcomed or used prior to about 2010, I am saying that they probably would - nobody will ever know the actual answer because we cannot turn the clock back and see what would have happened had they existed. We cannot test whether what I am saying is "drivel", or, "utter rubbish", so it is wrong to describe it as such... it is definitely possible, and maybe probable.

I cant really say what I am saying in any other ways, so you can take it or leave it, (leave it I guess :) )... I dont really mind either way.

Nowhere have I said they werent in use prior to 2010, many of the links I provided stated the numbers pre 2010. We can test and prove what you are saying is exactly what I said it was, as I pointed out evidence or 'hindsight' as you call it proves that.

According to the Trussell Trust, the number 1 reason people are forced to go to food banks is low income. There's nothing 'complex' about it, I think I'll take their word over yours cheers.

 

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1 hour ago, AMModels said:

Nowhere have I said they werent in use prior to 2010, many of the links I provided stated the numbers pre 2010. We can test and prove what you are saying is exactly what I said it was, as I pointed out evidence or 'hindsight' as you call it proves that.

According to the Trussell Trust, the number 1 reason people are forced to go to food banks is low income. There's nothing 'complex' about it, I think I'll take their word over yours cheers.

 

Not sure what my word was for you to take their word over mine?

I'd say the Trussell Trust are right about low income. What other reason could there be? 

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3 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Not sure what my word was for you to take their word over mine?

I'd say the Trussell Trust are right about low income. What other reason could there be? 

Not sure how to put it more clearly for you, I believe what they say about foodbanks and their use over what you say about the same. Hope that helps.

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1 hour ago, AMModels said:

Not sure how to put it more clearly for you, I believe what they say about foodbanks and their use over what you say about the same. Hope that helps.

Not a lot of point trying to explain, since life is apparently too short to study evidence - blind adherence to ignorant prejudice takes far less effort.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

OK. I've read all of those links and found food bank figures for 2012/3 compared with 2011/2 showing an increase in meals provided of 54%. But I couldn't find any figures relating to capacity over the years, nor comparisons with pre 2010 meals provided - I may have missed it/them?

I saw some assertions that food bank use would not have been greater prior to 2010 even if the facilties had been available, but they seem to be only assertions. That is what I find hard to believe, and there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence.

My adherence is no longer blind, and I am not sure what my prejudice is supposed to be?

 

BTW: I agree that poverty is serious, that the vulnerable are treated badly, I don't like how the Tories are handling the situation - particularly as public spending seems to have increased, but more seem to be suffering, and so on.

Edited by Richard10002
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6 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

BTW: I agree that poverty is serious, that the vulnerable are treated badly, I don't like how the Tories are handling the situation - particularly as public spending seems to have increased, but more seem to be suffering, and so on.

This leaves me more than a little puzzled.  If public spending is increasing where is it going?   Public sector pay is being frozen, fewer services are being provided, roads are in many cases unfit for purpose.  Where is all the supposed increase going?   Or perhaps austerity means the government are spending less on the public.

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On 16/07/2017 at 00:53, Richard10002 said:

OK. I've read all of those links and found food bank figures for 2012/3 compared with 2011/2 showing an increase in meals provided of 54%. But I couldn't find any figures relating to capacity over the years, nor comparisons with pre 2010 meals provided - I may have missed it/them?

I saw some assertions that food bank use would not have been greater prior to 2010 even if the facilties had been available, but they seem to be only assertions. That is what I find hard to believe, and there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence.

My adherence is no longer blind, and I am not sure what my prejudice is supposed to be?

 

BTW: I agree that poverty is serious, that the vulnerable are treated badly, I don't like how the Tories are handling the situation - particularly as public spending seems to have increased, but more seem to be suffering, and so on.

I think that the probable cause of the increase in food bank use was the ending of the crisis loan system back in March 2013. Then, whilst waiting for your first benefit payment it was possible to get an emergency payment to tide you over. This system was ditched and the responsibility passed to the local council who haven't got enough money to supply the services that they are required to do, so now if you have applied for benefit, have no job or savings and are waiting for the usual 6 weeks before you get your money, this is where the food banks have stepped in, due to the failure of government or others to address the problem. Before the ditching of the crisis loans, food banks were available, after the ditching they became essential.

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On 14/07/2017 at 02:00, Richard10002 said:

It's not drivel, and I take exception!! I have not suggested that people want to be there, and I agree that all would prefer not to be in such a situation.

How about: There was almost certainly a need for food banks long before 2010, but they obviously didn't exist in any volume - I would suggest that, if they had, they would have been used, just as much as they are today. Somebody clearly recognised that food banks would serve one of the needs created by poverty, as an addition to some of the other charitable and voluntary solutions and, as I have said before, if you build them, they will come, (or be sent, or however they end up getting to be there).

Poverty did not begin in 2010, and there have been a variety of voluntary and charitable ways of helping people suffering because of it for many many years, through governments of all colours.

It is not logical to say that the more food banks there are the more they are used which implies they are generating the need and thus a self fulfilling entity. That is incorrect and what is drivel.  Foodbanks are not a 21st century phenomenon but they have been on the increase. It is an effective way of giving direct help to those that need it and so a good idea has spread to provide that help not the other way around.  Of course there was poverty before 2010 and there were some foodbanks too but also other ways to help. In the past there were workhouses were we put the destitute and unemployed who could not support themselves but times and outlook (for some) has changed and we no longer treat people like that.

What I take exception too is your assertion that just because foodbanks are there they are creating the will/need to use them.  You have the logic completely 180 deg wrong.

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23 hours ago, churchward said:

 

What I take exception too is your assertion that just because foodbanks are there they are creating the will/need to use them.

That's not what I am asserting. I agree that they are not creating the will/need to use them.

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