Duel water heating - Calorifier and gas?

[BrenMyster]

Hi guys

 

Probably a stupid question, but is there any way to have duel heating on a narrowboat? Im in the market for one and it seem that most boats have either a calorifier or gas boiler to heat their water.

 

I was wondering if its possible to have both systems? if your are wondering why i am asking, i guess no having hot water would suck, so I want to have gas for the primary source and then a Calirifier if the gas runs out and i need hot water.

 

Cheers

 

B

[WotEver]

A few things...

 

A calorifier is not a form of heating - it's a hot water tank such as you'll find in most houses. It stores the water which is heated by whatever method is installed.

 

Heating both the boat and/or water can be achieved with the engine, a wood/coal burning stove, a gas appliance of some kind, or a diesel burning appliance.

 

Many boats have dual or even triple sources of heating. How that is achieved (shared between the appliances) depends entirely on the devices in question and the boater's requirements.

[OldGoat]

A calorifier is - too late - just a hot water tank (pipped to the post....)

Gas heating is not so popular nowadays because it is expensive to run, awkward in space requirements - the most popular (well it was in my day) version is a tall tower.

A more popular solution is diesel fired Ebberspacher / Mikuni / Webasto unit - there are others. They all heat the hot water and radiators.

[BrenMyster]

I was meant to say, a calorifier used with the engine or Ebberspacher system.

[WotEver]

Yes, your hot water can be supplied by the engine, an Ebber/Webasto, a back boiler, an instantaneous gas heater, or a diesel drip heater. All of those separately or in combination can be utilised.

[bizzard]

Instantaneous gas hot water heaters don't like being plumbed into the same circuit with other heaters, calorifiers ect. They only run properly with their own dedicated circuit, or with the use of a pair of valves or an Y or L port valve to isolate the other things out.

[BrenMyster]

I was thinking a kinda valve that you can choose were your hot water comes from so it sounds like its not possible. Im surprised that this is something thats not implemented on narrowboats tbh.

Edited December 9, 2016 by BrenMyster

[by'eck]

As suggested calorifier's are available with up to three heating coils to warm the water within the tank. Add the possibility that they could also have a screw boss to take a mains, typically 1-1.5 kW, heating element and you could have four separate heating sources, mains electric, engine, back boiler and diesel heater say. This might be considered a tad OTT however

[Tony Brooks]

 

I was thinking a kinda valve that you can choose were your hot water comes from so it sounds like its not possible. Im surprised that this is something thats not implemented on narrowboats tbh.

 

I do not understand this.

 

A twin coil calorifier allows hot water to be generated from the engine and any other boiler, gas, solid fuel, or oil. No valves are required but on my gas central heating I do have one isolate the radiators in the summer.

 

If by gas you mean an instant gas water heater then as Bizzard says you need at least one valve or maybe two so you never send water warmed by the calorofier into the instant gas water heater.

 

 

[RichM]

A lot of people avoid gas or reduce their usage for safety reasons and to avoid BSS complications. My boat has a simple gas feed supplying the hob and oven only. A single 13kg gas bottle last me months. - I know people who use gas for heating and go through a bottle a week!

 

I'm happy with my Eberspacher + wood/coal burning stove setup for heating/hot water. The Eberspacher runs on a timer which is very convenient (nice and warm when I get home from work!) and you can't fault a wood/coal burning stove for reliability & a nice cosy evening for those very cold nights.

 

Many people report reliability issues with Eberspachers. Mine has been OK since I started using it as recommended on here (running it on max for no less than 1 hour at a time) and *touch wood* it will continue to be OK!

 

My suggestion would be to post your current setup and people could suggest how it could be improved to provide convenience & resilience.

[adrianh]

If you are using an instant gas heater type that feeds multiple taps via pipework, then their is no reason why you cannot fit a manual 3 way lever valve downstream of this with the flow from the calorifier connected to the other inlet port. I would fit a non return valve on both inlets just to be sure that no back flow occurs.

You will need to get an L port type of valve. Use a 3/4 " bsp type as the internal ball restricts flow a bit. Available from industrial pipework suppliers or RS

You could then heat the coil(s) in the calorifier by any of the other methods. To prevent loss of heat via thermal flow through any of the coils, fit low spring rate or swing gate(flap) type non returns on the high point of the inlet flow pipes. This prevents the thermo syphoning effect when the heat source is stopped.

 

I have considered doing this as it seems a waste of gas to supply hot water when the engine has been running and dumping heat into the canal, however the cost of a calorifier etc is quite high. This is on my list of wants when the time is right!

 

I have used a similar set up ( with motorised solar water valves and an electrical switch circuit) to heat the radiators from the engine when moving or Mikuni heater when moored

[Sea Dog]

Surely someone can think of a way to make domestic hot water more complicated than this?!

[WotEver]

Surely someone can think of a way to make domestic hot water more complicated than this?!

Just make a post saying that it can't be done and wait for Geo's response

[adrianh]

Hi Seadog - Only more complicated if you add a gas pressure/usage monitoring system or engine running/temperature monitor and change heat source automatically!

 

All options are possible if you have the time and money.

[Sea Dog]

Hi Seadog - Only more complicated if you add a gas pressure/usage monitoring system or engine running/temperature monitor and change heat source automatically!

 

All options are possible if you have the time and money.

Of course it is Adrian. No offence meant - it's just that there's many a thread like this where things get quite complex and they always make me smile. Probably because I'm an Engineer and, whilst I've been involved with extremely complex systems, I always seek and prefer the simple, elegant solution.

 

I have a simple solution to this issue in my boat: occasionally I end up washing in cold water. Simple, though not necessarily elegant!

 

 

Edited to sort out a spelling/syntax error.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Sea Dog

[NB Lola]

My Webasto and engine both heat the water in my calorifier. My room heating is via webasto and/or multi fuel stove.

 

Edited to add that I also have an immersion while on shore power.

Edited December 10, 2016 by NB Lola

[Sea Dog]

My Webasto and engine both heat the water in my calorifier. My room heating is via webasto and/or multi fuel stove.

As does mine, with the addition of an immersion heater when on shore power. I don't see much wrong with that very common configuration. I'm sure there are improvements that could be made, but the law of diminishing returns comes into play pretty quickly.

[alan_fincher]

I was thinking a kinda valve that you can choose were your hot water comes from so it sounds like its not possible. Im surprised that this is something thats not implemented on narrowboats tbh.

 

It's entirely possible.

 

Both my last boat and my current one had valves that allow you to select whether the hot taps are being fed from heated water in a calorifier, or water being instantaneously heated by a Morco.

 

You simply operate the valve to select one or the other.

 

To the source you are not using, the valve set to only allow flow from the other source looks no different at all to a hot water system with all the taps turned off. It just sits there doing nothing until the valve is set the other way.

 

It really is as simple as that!

 

You do need to decide if it is important to be able to reach the valve from a shower, so you can switch to the alternate heating source if all the hot water in the calorifier gets used up, without having to walk soaking wet to change the tap located somewhere else on the boat!

[Robbo]

Surely someone can think of a way to make domestic hot water more complicated than this?!

I'm planning on adding a heat exchanger after the hot water outlet of the calorfier with the heat source from a 12kw Bubble PJ, this way it can can act like a combi boiler so your water in the calorfier doesn't need to be hot if you want a shower, but still take advantage of the calorfier.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Robbo

[canals are us?]

I have just installed a webasto 5kw diesel boiler. This is linked to heat the radiators and hot water as well as the solid fuel stove with back boiler. The solid fuel stove is at one end of the boat and webasto the other end. I have plumbed them as a continuous loop with separate cold feeds and one vent pipe on the solid fuel. Either end is an auto air vent to vent out any air.

The solid fuel circuit is by gravity circulation and webasto pumped.

I don't need to close/ open any valves but have installed full bore lever valves to avoid draining the entire heating system, when I have to remove the webasto for repair or servicing.

 

I can also heat the hot water with the engine or the 1.2kw immersion.

 

So 4 x ways to heat domestic hot water and 2x ways to heat radiators/ boat.

 

I have to change the exhaust pipe and silencer for a gas tight one and wrap it.

 

 

 

James

Edited December 10, 2016 by canals are us?