Jump to content

Lister diesel Issues


bonany

Featured Posts

Hello all.

 

I was told by a mechanic that red diesel and diesel fro a petrol station is bad for old engines. Is this total nonsense?

Something to do with modern diesel being made with crap oils, like cooking fat etc.

 

If this is the case, does anybody know about where to get "good" diesel for old engines?

Or a good additive to put in diesel to help the quality of it? This guy talked about putting a dash of oil in with the diesel.

 

Thanks for your help and please excuse my naivety.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, you have been told complete nonsense. Old crap, is not used in modern road diesel.

 

The road diesel (DERV) sold at petrol stations and the marked diesel sold at canalside outlets are generally pretty close to being the same thing these days, other than the presence of the marker dyes in the latter.

 

A while back the products differed, because a much higher sulphur content was allowed in the marked oil, but it no longer is, and all must meet the same "ultra low sulphur" requirement.

 

One difference is that road diesel will I believe always contain some biofuel, where as some canal suppliers are claiming their product to be FAME free. However quiz most canal suppliers and they don't actually know if theirs is or not, so I would say if you turn up somewhere and just buy "red" you are likely to find it has the same biofuel component as "white" bought at a roadside outlet.

 

The concerns about biofuel are that it may make diesel bug more likely, particularly if fuel sits in your tanks a long while. Also that it may damage some seals on truly "vintage" engines, but this would not I think apply to air-cooled Listers like the SL, SR,ST, HA, HB & HR series. What old Lister do you have? If it's really old you may need better advice than I am giving here!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Alan,

 

This feels like good information.

I have a Lister SR2.

It keeps cutting out, I think it's over heating. I'm trying to narrow down what the issue might be.

I should probably get someone to look at it really, but finding a good mechanic in the london area is tough.

 

Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Alan,

 

This feels like good information.

I have a Lister SR2.

It keeps cutting out, I think it's over heating. I'm trying to narrow down what the issue might be.

I should probably get someone to look at it really, but finding a good mechanic in the london area is tough.

 

Joe

Often the engines hot air outlet trunking has collapsed, check that. Or the cylinder barrel cooling fins are bunged up with goo. These can be cleaned to some degree by mixing up a strong solution of washing up liquid and water, a couple of pints. Run the engine up to normal temperature. Heat up the washing up liquid and water solution to about the same temp as the engine and whilst the engine is running pour it down through the air inlet flywheel housing mesh. The flywheel cooling fan will pick it up and fling it all around the cooling fins. Nice dirty bubbles will ooze out from all around the engine casing. Keep the engine running for some time. Go for a cruise. This will evaporate and dry out any that's left.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most likely reason for an SR 2 overheating is as Bizzard says crud in the fins of the barrels.

 

If you can get the shielding off, Richards preferred method of cleaning is to use an implement to prod and poke the rubbish out, maybe a combination of softening it with bizzards method then fiddling the rest of the rubbish out would be best.

 

I do know of a couple of engineers in London with some Lister experience if you get stuck.

However trying to clean out the fins is probably the cheapest and easiest first step, and doesn't need any mechanical expertise.

 

Good Luck.

 

Sue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a Lister SR2.

It keeps cutting out, I think it's over heating. I'm trying to narrow down what the issue might be.

 

I'd be concerned as to why overheating would cause it to be cutting out, unless it was overheating so much that it is in danger of seizing up.

 

How much too hot do you think it is getting?

 

Cutting out can of course also be down to muck or water in your fuel, when were the fuel filters last changed?

 

Or it can be air getting sucked in through leaks in the fuel supply somewhere, has any of that been disturbed at all before this problem started.

 

I'm not sure what your skills are, or how much DIY you feel confident to tackle, but, without more info, I think there are enough possible causes you may do well to call in a mechanic, particularly if you think the engine may be overheating, and want to find a solution before it all gets a lot more expensive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, yes.

 

All good advice.

 

Right, I think i'll have a go at cleaning the fins. I've been inside the engine a little so I know where they are.

I can also have a go at replacing the fuel filters and draining off the water accumulation from the tank.

Thanks so much for your advice guys, I'll keep you informed as to how I get on.

 

Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

unless it was overheating so much that it is in danger of seizing up.

 

That would be pretty normal for an old Lister with little maintenance. They run again when the cylinders cool down

 

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, yes.

 

All good advice.

 

Right, I think i'll have a go at cleaning the fins. I've been inside the engine a little so I know where they are.

I can also have a go at replacing the fuel filters and draining off the water accumulation from the tank.

Thanks so much for your advice guys, I'll keep you informed as to how I get on.

 

Joe

When you take off the heat shields from around the cylinders, concentrate and take pictures so that you replace them the right way round, to ensure that the air flow is as Lister intended it. In a previous thread somewhere on this forum it was pointed out how important this is. RLWP will know more than me about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A further point that just could apply. Many Listers have a lot of internal fuel pipes. When one fractures or a union leaks it dilutes the engine oil. If the boater does not regularly check he oil level and act if it starts rising the oil can get so thin the engine partially seizes. Often they seem to run ok but with smell and often smoke, but stall when you drop them to idle.

 

Just to be on the safe side check the oil level and feel the oil compared with fresh oil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A further point that just could apply. Many Listers have a lot of internal fuel pipes. When one fractures or a union leaks it dilutes the engine oil. If the boater does not regularly check he oil level and act if it starts rising the oil can get so thin the engine partially seizes. Often they seem to run ok but with smell and often smoke, but stall when you drop them to idle.

 

Just to be on the safe side check the oil level and feel the oil compared with fresh oil.

 

And if you find that there doesn't seem to be any oil - test the dipstick with a bit of kitchen towel. Very dilute oil looks like a clean dipstick

 

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back to the original question, yes there is probably some truth in what you have been told about poor fuel, but its a grey area with a lot of rumour and myth and the truth is hard to find.

Both Red and White (Road) diesel are now low sulphur and the sulphur removal process reduces the lubricity of the fuel. Its not easy to find out by how much. This is the source of the "add a bit of oil" story. There are various proper additives that improve the lubricity and these are a better way to do it, but do cost. Low lubricity just might cause long term wear in some injection systems.

Second issue is that both red and white now contain some bio diesel and this can cause quite a few problems, lots of stuff on the www about this.

Main issue is that its prone to attracting water and growing the fuel bug. Again additives help, as does cleaning any water out of the tank from time to time.

A few canal side suppliers still sell "good old" fuel without the bio, its called FAME Free, but its still low sulphur.

 

Its generally believed here that red and white diesel are the same stuff but a look at the spec sheets suggests that red has a much lower cetane rating. Most older engines are probably happy with this but might run a little better with a higher cetane. Many additives will improve the cetane though not up to the same level as white. I believe that the popular "Fuel Set" is not a cetane raiser.

 

Anybody who says that diesel and heating oil are the same thing should be avoided.

 

..................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its generally believed here that red and white diesel are the same stuff but a look at the spec sheets suggests that red has a much lower cetane rating.

 

Yes,

 

To a degree this is correct, but there are actually two types of marked gas oil that may be supplied as "red", and if it is to the "EN590" spec, then it is actually a similar spec to white DERV, with the same Cetane value.

 

My understanding, (which may be wrong!), is that much of the "red" being supplied is to "EN590", and comes from the same tanks at the distribution depots as road diesel (DERV).

 

However none of this affects the answer to the original question! No, white diesel bought at a filling station is not of a lower standard than "red" sold canal-side. Depending on exactly what "red" you are buying the red diesel will either be to the same spec, or a higher spec, but never to a lower one, surely?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yes,

 

To a degree this is correct, but there are actually two types of marked gas oil that may be supplied as "red", and if it is to the "EN590" spec, then it is actually a similar spec to white DERV, with the same Cetane value.

 

My understanding, (which may be wrong!), is that much of the "red" being supplied is to "EN590", and comes from the same tanks at the distribution depots as road diesel (DERV).

 

However none of this affects the answer to the original question! No, white diesel bought at a filling station is not of a lower standard than "red" sold canal-side. Depending on exactly what "red" you are buying the red diesel will either be to the same spec, or a higher spec, but never to a lower one, surely?

 

I read the original post as asking whether both red and road diesel are unsuitable for old engines, not suggesting that white was inferior?

As I inferred in my post, its very hard to get to the bottom of all this.

 

At least one supplier (wholesaler) is optionally offering higher quality red by the use of additives. I believe that all DERV has some additives, (though there are many suggestions that some supermarkets sell additive free diesel to help with their lower price), and this must have some cost, so I would be surprised if expensive white would be died red to sell at a lower price.

 

Trying to get any information from canalside sellers about the spec. of their fuel is a usually a waste of time, most don't even understand the concept of FAME free. Having said that two of the suppliers down here on the K&A know exactly what they are selling and what spec it is.

 

BS 2869 Class A2 looks to be the standard for red diesel.

 

I had some bad fuel issues in the summer, which is why I have swotted up on this, and briefly ran a temporary fuel system based on some road diesel in a Jerry can. I felt that it gave a much sharper combustion knock but from what I have read it is not clear cut whether a higher cetane give a harder or softer burn so this is a bit inconclusive.

 

This is one of several specs available on the www:

 

https://craggsenergy.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Craggs-Energy-Gas-Oil.pdf

 

.................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trying to get any information from canalside sellers about the spec. of their fuel is a usually a waste of time, most don't even understand the concept of FAME free.

On this point we are in total agreement!

 

BS 2869 Class A2 looks to be the standard for red diesel.

No, I would say it is one of two different standards for red diesel.....

 

BS2869:2010 (Part 1 Class A2)

EN590: 2009

 

If you are getting the latter, then I believe it is basically the same spec as "white", including Cetane value

 

But I agree your previous point applies, many canal-side suppliers or fuel boats may not be able to tell you which of the two specs they are actually supplying, and therin lies the conundrum. It's a ll very good saying "buy FAME free", but if they can't tell you if it is.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have tried to compare these two specs but its not straightforward. It looks like the two are very similar except for the cetane which is 45 for the gas oil and 51 for the DERV. The DERV also might have slightly better cold weather performance.

I would really like to know which one I am getting but that's not likely to happen.

 

We got something horrid in the summer which was sold as FAME Free but I reckon it was heating oil. I believe the tankers often contain both and the driver makes the selection so I imagine its an easy mistake to make, or possibly the wholesaler got confused about FAME free and heating oil.

Spending another winter on the K&A and the local coal boat sells FAME Free at a very good price.

 

................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

snip

 

I had some bad fuel issues in the summer, which is why I have swotted up on this, and briefly ran a temporary fuel system based on some road diesel in a Jerry can. I felt that it gave a much sharper combustion knock but from what I have read it is not clear cut whether a higher cetane give a harder or softer burn so this is a bit inconclusive.

 

This is one of several specs available on the www:

 

https://craggsenergy.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Craggs-Energy-Gas-Oil.pdf

 

.................Dave

 

 

Diesel knock is caused by the injected fuel not igniting the instant it enters the cylinder. It takes time to warm up sufficiently to ignite. This means that you get a build up of unburned fuel droplets in the cylinder that all tend to ignite when the first ones have ignited and raised the temperature. This creates a pressure peak that we sense as the diesel knock. The larger the build up of unburned fuel droplets the larger the pressure rise so the greater the knock.

 

The cetane rating indicates the the ease with which the fuel will ignite (or if you [prefer the speed of ignition or the time it takes) with higher cetane ratings indicating fuel that should ignite faster and thus reduce diesel knock.

 

 

Although this is off topic I get a bit unhappy when people say the Eberwasto type heater fail on red diesel because of the lower cetane rating. A cylinder will have 500 power strokes a minute at 1000 rpm so that is one every 8 seconds and the time taken to ignite the fuel is far less than this. Eberwastos take many seconds to ignite and once ignited have continuous burning so the cetane rating can not have much, if any effect on the combustion process. I think the problems were caused by other aspects of the fuel.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its unfortunate my father in law has passed over as he was a diesel fuel scientist at Shell or BP (cant remember which).

 

He used to tell me that white diesel composition varied with the seasons too. In winter in contains an anti-waxing component. I also seem to remember him saying each retailer had their own formula of additives which although the diesel all came from the same tanks, made each brand at the forecourt slightly different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its unfortunate my father in law has passed over as he was a diesel fuel scientist at Shell or BP (cant remember which).

 

He used to tell me that white diesel composition varied with the seasons too. In winter in contains an anti-waxing component. I also seem to remember him saying each retailer had their own formula of additives which although the diesel all came from the same tanks, made each brand at the forecourt slightly different.

 

There are even formal dates when the fuel should change from winter grade to summer grade and back again. A problem here is that it takes a fair while for me to get through a tank of fuel so I probably run on the wrong stuff. I keep the tank topped up when I can so will suffer from progressive dilution. I suspect many boaters have a few molecules than have been there since the boat was built.

 

...............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Diesel knock is caused by the injected fuel not igniting the instant it enters the cylinder. It takes time to warm up sufficiently to ignite. This means that you get a build up of unburned fuel droplets in the cylinder that all tend to ignite when the first ones have ignited and raised the temperature. This creates a pressure peak that we sense as the diesel knock. The larger the build up of unburned fuel droplets the larger the pressure rise so the greater the knock.

 

The cetane rating indicates the the ease with which the fuel will ignite (or if you [prefer the speed of ignition or the time it takes) with higher cetane ratings indicating fuel that should ignite faster and thus reduce diesel knock.

 

 

Although this is off topic I get a bit unhappy when people say the Eberwasto type heater fail on red diesel because of the lower cetane rating. A cylinder will have 500 power strokes a minute at 1000 rpm so that is one every 8 seconds and the time taken to ignite the fuel is far less than this. Eberwastos take many seconds to ignite and once ignited have continuous burning so the cetane rating can not have much, if any effect on the combustion process. I think the problems were caused by other aspects of the fuel.

 

 

I thought I understood this stuff, my career involved a lot of cylinder pressure measurement and analysis, though more petrols than diesels. Thats why I was slightly surprised that I got much harder knock when I ran with the road diesel. A complicating factor is that I had advanced the timing just a fraction to see if it would encourage whatever bad stuff I had to burn a bit better, it was making smoke rather than power. Had a complaint at Harecastle from a hire boater who didn't want to share the tunnel with us.cloud9.gif

 

...............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I should think advancing the injection would make the knock louder because fuel would be burning while the piston was still going up giving rise to a higher peak pressure. However, like you I would expect DERV to give less knock that fuel oil although I suspect in many cases the difference in cetane rating between gas oil and DERV would not allow a person to differentiate the degree of knock.

 

I don't know if you are still interested in such things or if you already know it but apart from the pressure peak caused by diesel knock the indicator diagram for a diesel is much closer to the ideal that that for a petrol engine. It is much loser to a constant pressure diagram during the power stroke. I suspect modern diesels with pilot injection are even closer that our engines.

 

 

 

Perfectly correct Mike. It goes for petrol as well with the composition having more of the more volatile factions in the winter to aid cold starting and less in summer to avoid vapour lock. (Not sure you get vapour locks on petrol injection systems).

Edited by Tony Brooks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its actually the rate of pressure rise rather than the peak pressure itself that controls the audibility of diesel combustion, though I expect the two are generally related.

I am still very interested in this stuff though I admit its more curiosity than a professional interest these days.

We have the Beta JD3 which is very sensitive to small timing changes. A couple of degrees makes a huge difference to the engine sound, and yes, advancing the timing gives much harsher combustion.

Sadly I lost most of my collection of cylinder pressure data when I left work but I do have a bit from modern electronically injected turbo diesels. I can't put this here but could show you over a pint or two one day. I would love to get my hands on some good quality cylinder pressure data (indicator diagrams) from the sort of slow revving DI engines that are installed in narrowboats if you have any.

 

...............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.