Generator

[MtB]

Different Tony but anyway... two ways.

 

1. As a battery ages the 'fully charged' state will not read the same Specific Density as a new battery. There's too much unconverable hardened sulphate to convert back to acid.

 

2. One or more cells will show a marked difference in SD than the others which an equalisation charge doesn't fix.

 

 

Dammit and there was me thinking this was a way to reliably know when 100% SoC has been achieved!

[Tony Brooks]

Well if you can be sure the acid is properly mixed AND you do the temperature correction calculations it will do on unsulphated batteries. This of course supposes that you can read through the meniscus when using a typical hydrometer. That is why some people prefer a refractometer. It also supposes the hydrometer is a quality item that has been properly calibrated. One with a small thermometer in the side is likely to be more accurate (after temperature correction) that a simple glass tube type from Halfords or online sources.

[MtB]

Tony, its a refractometer I have on order. I should have been more concise!

[WotEver]

Tony, its a refractometer I have on order. I should have been more concise!

Apply the temperature correction carefully and you'll be spot on.

[peterboat]

Well he can use this info on his nice new full traction batteries when he replaces them then

 

Right now what he needs is an ammeter.

To be honest he would be better of with full tractions and a watering system if he is full time livaboard, the price to replace would be about the same as AGMs, and they will more than likely last longer, shame he wasnt on this side of the country.

[MtB]

To be honest he would be better of with full tractions and a watering system if he is full time livaboard, the price to replace would be about the same as AGMs, and they will more than likely last longer, shame he wasnt on this side of the country.

 

 

What do we mean by 'full traction' batteries? Are Trojan T105's full traction? I thought they were 'semi traction'.

 

I bought four Yuasa (T105 equivs) the other day for £90 each plus VAT. Hardly any more expensive than leisures.

 

(I chose them over Trojans as the spec sheet specifies a slightly lower charging voltage, better matched to my alternator regulator output voltage.)

[Tony Brooks]

 

To be honest he would be better of with full tractions and a watering system if he is full time livaboard, the price to replace would be about the same as AGMs, and they will more than likely last longer, shame he wasnt on this side of the country.

 

Not until he learns how to look after them I would say. Until that time he may a s well practice on some cheapish open cell leisure batteries.

 

 

 

[Geo]

 

 

 

Not until he learns how to look after them I would say. Until that time he may a s well practice on some cheapish open cell leisure batteries.

 

 

 

 

 

That is the problem with recommending Trojans 105s etc to people who have not managed to keep a set of leisure batteries going for two years or so. Learning how to charge and manage them on expensive batteries is an expensive hobby. There is a new one on another thread that might be going down the sulphate route but we will see.

[MtB]

 

That is the problem with recommending Trojans 105s etc to people who have not managed to keep a set of leisure batteries going for two years or so. Learning how to charge and manage them on expensive batteries is an expensive hobby. There is a new one on another thread that might be going down the sulphate route but we will see.

 

Is it?

 

My set of four Trojan clones cost about the same as five el cheapo leisures. And they are FAR more forgiving than leisures.

[Geo]

 

Is it?

 

My set of four Trojan clones cost about the same as five el cheapo leisures. And they are FAR more forgiving than leisures.

 

 

Lets see in four or five years time. Unfortunately that is the only sensible answer I can give you about your case. Although having looked at some past threads I think you were sure that you were fully charging etc in the past.

 

To me you need a minimum of a good quality accurate shunt ammeter capable of measuring 1/4 amp to an accuracy of better than 3% or so. The crux of the matter is fully charge after every use. Yet only today if my mind is half working I am sure I read a post saying that someone should discharge their batteries to 50% or more plus even if it took a few days.

 

As for being far more forgiving than leisures. I am not sure you are right if you cost relate it. Where did you get the info that the Yaesus were the equivalent in all respects of the Trojans?

 

I wish you luck Mike and I hope you succeed,

[MtB]

 

 

Where did you get the info that the Yaesus were the equivalent in all respects of the Trojans?

 

 

They are not.

 

They are better, which is why I bought them.

[Geo]

 

 

They are not.

 

They are better, which is why I bought them.

 

So as I asked where did you get that info from?

Edited November 22, 2016 by Geo

[MtB]

Manufacturer's data sheets.

[Geo]

Manufacturer's data sheets.

 

Interesting could you let me have a link?

[Timx]

Hi, we'll all this has helped my future management, so not all been bad,I went boat yard,he came to measure them ,but when he looked at first one , he said its bulging. Other two look ok,but recommends replacing all three. 660ah should be lasting more than a night despite lights fridge and whatever inverter takes. I also asked about the smart meter , but he recommends the victor on battery monitor which will give me a percentage soc which will help me not knacker the new ones. He said he can get me new AGM,s 220ah as to replace ones I already have, but he said they would be around £400 each,but agreed I could probably get them cheaper on line ,and they could fit them for me along with the victor on monitor for an extra £120 . So I know(I think there getting knackered with age (8 years) and have a plan,I will get them sorted in about three weeks,so sort of happy.Next question, I want to replace with like for like, I see these batteries for around £400 and on e bay there are some for £280, a significant difference, any advice please and recommendations of particular ones I can source.?.Thanks again your advice has really start to get my head round it.(Hopefully)

[Geo]

1. Can you easily get to the batteries to check water levels?

 

If you can I would recommend that you buy open wet lead acids, the Victron and the Smartgauge. I am hearing but have not experience that Yuasa are doing a good battery at a reasonable price ask MtB he has apparently just bought some.

 

The smartgauge and the Victron together will give you all the information that you need to manage the batteries and have the information to give you the best chance of making them last.

[cuthound]

If he is recommending the Victron BMV 600 or 700 series battery monitor, then you cannot rely on the battery percentage SoC reading unless you periodically assess the capacity of your battery (it will fall with age and misuse), and reset the BMV to the new reduced capacity.

 

You can use the ammeter part of this meter to measure battery tail current to assess whether the battery is fully charged. When fully charged with the charger in ABSORBTION mode (not float) and the ammeter has not reduced current for two readings 30 minutes apart, then the battery is charged.

Edited November 23, 2016 by cuthound

[WotEver]

I also asked about the smart meter , but he recommends the victor on battery monitor which will give me a percentage soc which will help me not knacker the new ones.

The one thing that a Victron Ah counter WON'T do is give you a reliable SOC reading. You don't have to take my word for it if you don't want to, you can read this instead:

http://thunderboat.boards.net/thread/867/battery-state-charge-meters-tell

 

A Merlin SmartGauge is the only instrument currently available at low cost that can tell you the SoC with any degree of accuracy:

http://www.merlinequipment.com/markets/group.asp?groupid=48

 

A Victron BMV can give all sorts of information but at the end of the day the only information that can be totally relied upon from it is the Voltmeter and Ammeter. These can be provided by a SmartGauge and a ten quid ammeter.

 

Or you can just listen to the boatyard who want you to buy what they sell.

 

Tony

[MtB]

Hi, we'll all this has helped my future management, so not all been bad,I went boat yard,he came to measure them ,but when he looked at first one , he said its bulging. Other two look ok,but recommends replacing all three. 660ah should be lasting more than a night despite lights fridge and whatever inverter takes. I also asked about the smart meter , but he recommends the victor on battery monitor which will give me a percentage soc which will help me not knacker the new ones. He said he can get me new AGM,s 220ah as to replace ones I already have, but he said they would be around £400 each,but agreed I could probably get them cheaper on line ,and they could fit them for me along with the victor on monitor for an extra £120 . So I know(I think there getting knackered with age (8 years) and have a plan,I will get them sorted in about three weeks,so sort of happy.Next question, I want to replace with like for like, I see these batteries for around £400 and on e bay there are some for £280, a significant difference, any advice please and recommendations of particular ones I can source.?.Thanks again your advice has really start to get my head round it.(Hopefully)

 

 

I have to say, I would not fully trust any advice from a technician recommending the Victron current counter over a SmartGauge for battery monitoring, and AGM batteries over open cell traction batteries. I wasn't party to the conversation obviously so there may have been things said that led to these recommendations but on the face of it, it is not excellent advice.

 

The victron simply counts the current in and out of the batteries, tots it up and calculates a probable state of charge. Starts off being correct then drifts out a long way in the fullness of time. The SmartGauge stays on track.

 

AGM batteries cannot be topped up and in order to protect the electrolyte, MUST be charged at a lower current (i.e. takes longer) than an equivalent open cell battery.

 

All the above is as I understand it. I'm still learning myself.

[MtB]

 

Interesting could you let me have a link?

 

There are two data sheets. Not sure why.

 

http://news.yuasa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Pro-Spec-leaflet.pdf

 

http://www.yuasa.co.uk/yuasa/datasheet/index/sku/DCB105-6(ET)/

 

I paid £93.08 plus VAT each for four, collected from a battery supplier warehouse in Surbiton called CPC. Very helpful and well organised small business.

 

http://www.cpcbatteries.co.uk/

[WotEver]

You can use the ammeter part of this meter to measure battery tail current to assess whether the battery is fully charged. When fully charged with the charger in ABSORBTION mode (not float) and the ammeter has not reduced current for two readings 30 minutes apart, then the battery is charged.

And note that this can take many hours, which surprises many inexperienced boaters. 5, 6, or 8 hours is not unusual.

[MtB]

P.S. They also had Trojan T105s in stock but I selected the Yuasa because they require a slightly lower charge voltage.

(Trojans were £119.04 plus VAT each when buying four.)

[Geo]

The one thing that a Victron Ah counter WON'T do is give you a reliable SOC reading. You don't have to take my word for it if you don't want to, you can read this instead:

http://thunderboat.boards.net/thread/867/battery-state-charge-meters-tell

 

A Merlin SmartGauge is the only instrument currently available at low cost that can tell you the SoC with any degree of accuracy:

http://www.merlinequipment.com/markets/group.asp?groupid=48

 

A Victron BMV can give all sorts of information but at the end of the day the only information that can be totally relied upon from it is the Voltmeter and Ammeter. These can be provided by a SmartGauge and a ten quid ammeter.

 

Or you can just listen to the boatyard who want you to buy what they sell.

 

Tony

 

As for the TB link I think you had a hand in writing that ..........

 

If he can get a Victron installed etc for 120 then I suspect it will not be much more that a simple ammeter and the cost of getting it installed. Add to that a smartgauge as I mentioned earlier I would then think he has everything he could want for battery management.

 

As for batteries it depends on whether he can easily get to the tops of them to check the electrolyte level or not. If he can't he could well be better off with the AGMs.

Edited November 23, 2016 by wrigglefingers
removed username

[Alan de Enfield]

 

You can use the ammeter part of this meter to measure battery tail current to assess whether the battery is fully charged. When fully charged with the charger in ABSORBTION mode (not float) and the ammeter has not reduced current for two readings 30 minutes apart, then the battery is charged.

 

And note that this can take many hours, which surprises many inexperienced boaters. 5, 6, or 8 hours is not unusual.

 

And that is where solar becomes 'useful'.

use your alternator (or generator) to get to 85%-90% SoC, then let Solar spend the 'hours' doing the final bit.

 

It does become bit more difficult November to March when your Solar is maybe only producing 5% of its 'rated' output.

[WotEver]

 

If he can get a Victron installed etc for 120 then I suspect it will not be much more that a simple ammeter and the cost of getting it installed.

I very much doubt that the cost of £120 for installation of the BVM and batteries also included supply of the BVM. If it did then the boatyard are charging nothing for their labour.