Living with 12 volts only?

[Inverted]

Hi all,

 

I have been looking into various options for living aboard for a while now, and ideally we would like to live with as little energy usage as possible,whilst still having most of the creature comforts we are used to. I guess this is a compromise that most people make.

 

We don't watch a great deal of TV, internet is more our thing. I know I can set up a pc to run off 12 volts and that you can get washing machines and fridges that do the same, so I think most gadgets are covered.

 

I was wondering how it is practical to use purely 12 volt appliances, compared with the convenience of a 240v set up.

 

I would be installing some sort of solar array and charge controller, don't know quite what yet as I am just at the planning stage.

 

Is using purely 12 volts a viable option?

 

Has anyone got experience of living just using 12 volts?

 

Many Thanks

[Tony Brooks]

I would say the answer to the question about the practicality of full 12V living is probably no because there will always be some things that need a mains supply. I use a small inverter to charge visitors mobile phones that do not have a typical 12V charging connector, a hand help vacuum cleaner ans so on. It spends most of it time turned off. Apart from that for the several months we are aboard in the summer we live happily with only 12 volts.

 

Take care with things like electric tooth brushes and hair curlers. Some demand a pure sine wave inverter and have been damaged by other types.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

To the best of my knowledge there are no 12V washing machines.

[Sea Dog]

You won't necessarily use appreciably more energy just because you convert some of your 12V DC supply to 240V AC (apart from a little bit in inverter inefficiency). Of course, there's more stuff you can plug in, so you have the capacity to do go mad, but you don't have to. The compressor in a 12V fridge might be a more efficient one and the fact that you don't need to run the inverter 24/7 to keep it running is a help too, so there are some savings there. Left on permanently, the inverter will use a chunk of power, but used as required it will give you flexibility and save you money on the additional cost 12V powered equipment and less common power supplies for laptops, etc.

[Catnip King]

Well cost of wiring your boat with 12v vs 240v will be much more money because of thicker wires Inverters are quite efficient now so I don't see the need for only living with 12v.

[Richard10002]

Well cost of wiring your boat with 12v vs 240v will be much more money because of thicker wires Inverters are quite efficient now so I don't see the need for only living with 12v.

 

I have a Sterling Combi Pro S 2500W inverter 70A charger, which is the epitomy of inneficiency with the inverter on 24/7, (it uses 4A doing nothing!!). There is a facility to have it on a stand by type of setting, but it wont fire up unless a certain amount of power is demanded... so a toothbrush, a shaver, a mobile phone, wont power it up.

 

Which inverter charger would you suggest as being quite efficient at the same time as providing at least/around 2500W and 70A.

[Alan de Enfield]

The money saved in buying 220v appliances gives you a 'lot of spending money' to improve your electricity storage and generation capacity.

 

Cost Example :

12v Fridge £500-£600 whilst a 220v Fridge is around £100

Small 12v Freezer around £500, whilst a 220v 'small' freezer is £80

 

Practically : 220v vacuum that works, compared with a 12v one that does not 'suck' much at all.

[Inverted]

The money saved in buying 220v appliances gives you a 'lot of spending money' to improve your electricity storage and generation capacity.

 

Cost Example :

12v Fridge £500-£600 whilst a 220v Fridge is around £100

Small 12v Freezer around £500, whilst a 220v 'small' freezer is £80

 

Practically : 220v vacuum that works, compared with a 12v one that does not 'suck' much at all.

 

Thanks, that's a really useful point, I hadn't realised that there was such a difference in price. Practicality makes a difference too. It looks like an inverter of some kind is going to be a sensible investment.

[Keith M]

 

I have a Sterling Combi Pro S 2500W inverter 70A charger, which is the epitomy of inneficiency with the inverter on 24/7, (it uses 4A doing nothing!!). There is a facility to have it on a stand by type of setting, but it wont fire up unless a certain amount of power is demanded... so a toothbrush, a shaver, a mobile phone, wont power it up.

 

Which inverter charger would you suggest as being quite efficient at the same time as providing at least/around 2500W and 70A.

 

I always use one one the Mastervolt Inverter / Chargers

Around 92 % efficiency

 

Keith

[Dave_P]

I have a 240v washing machine and a 0v washing machine

[Arthur Brown]

My experience with 12v laptop chargers is BAD most don't work at all some work poorly few work properly, I think I've paid for ten, bit only one continues to work. I've never heard of a desktop that's run properly off 12v.

 

Personally I think life on 12v is too much like camping, with poor quality kit, Some things work well off 12v -LED lights as a prime example, but I would always have a pure sine inverter available. Likely a 600 - 1000w model would be enough but there are items of modern life that just refuse to work on quasi sine (square) wave inverters, and some things that die if NOT connected to sine wave power.

[Neil2]

I think you can manage with 12v and a cheap 300w inverter to recharge things but as Tony says it would be difficult in the modern world to try and live without some 240v appliances.

 

For us it's not so much about the voltage, it's that once you start to get used to 240v and a big inverter you have to turn your attention to power generation and battery capacity. I like the fact that we can just run with a single alternator, two batteries and a single solar panel which covers all our needs and I never have to run the engine whilst stationary. We have a twin tub washer that happily runs off the 300w inverter.

 

My view is there's enough to go wrong on a boat as it is without adding to the list, but I absolutely respect the opinion of those who choose the 240v route. If I was fitting out a boat from scratch today there would be a lot to recommend it.

 

Of course these days it is possible to cruise and spend the occasional night in a marina on shore power.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think that when you said :

 

"....we would like to live with as little energy usage as possible, whilst still having most of the creature comforts we are used to..."

 

You condemned yourself to a life WITH mains electricity.

[cuthound]

To the best of my knowledge there are no 12V washing machines.

True, but you can get non-electric one.

 

http://www.greencleaningmagazine.com/3-efficient-hand-washing-machines/

[OldGoat]

I can and do run:-

A 'camping' 240V twin tub (no heating),

A 27" tv

A '50'w soundbar

various - laptop, shaver and toothbrush chargers

all from and simultaneously a nominal 300w sinewave inverter, which gets turned off when not required - althought I think its standby power is very small.

I don't liveaboard and hot water is from the engine / mikuni, cooking is by gas. The fridge is 12v - but it consumes a lot of battery power. We're comfortable with that.

 

So 12v living is possible

 

Edit: Having been taken to task by a more senior member (my bad for not RTFM as it were) -

If for sake of 12V only and that for pedantry's sake MUST include any device that has an internal or separate mini inverter (i.e. no PCs, or TVs), then the answer must be a resounding NO.

 

If OTOH the OP is happy with not running his engine for long periods each day and perhaps aided by solar in the summer months, then methinks a slightly less hair shirt existence is possible.

Edited October 22, 2016 by OldGoat

[zenataomm]

Well of course most of us are fully aware that the decline and eventual collapse of commercial long distance canal carrying was due to the impossibilty of living without 240 volts AC.

 

It just can't be done.

Trying to live afloat with 12V DC is frankly impossible.

 

Arthur Bray was heard to mutter as he finally left Raymond with his cast iron rivetted microwave under his arm ....

"12V DC? That way madness lies, thee mark my words."

[Alan de Enfield]

I can and do run:-

A 'camping' 240V twin tub (no heating),

A 27" tv

A '50'w soundbar

various - laptop, shaver and toothbrush chargers

all from and simultaneously a nominal 300w sinewave inverter, which gets turned off when not required - althought I think its standby power is very small.

I don't liveaboard and hot water is from the engine / mikuni, cooking is by gas. The fridge is 12v - but it consumes a lot of battery power. We're comfortable with that.

 

So 12v living is possible

 

Maybe you (or I) misunderstood the question

 

You appear to be saying that 12v living is possible (of course it is) but you achieve it by using a 12v - 220v inverter, which is what most of the posts have said.

 

My understanding of the question was "is living solely on 12v possible" (ie no 220 v by any means)

[cuthound]

 

Arthur Bray was heard to mutter as he finally left Raymond with his cast iron rivetted microwave under his arm ....

"12V DC? That way madness lies, thee mark my words."

 

No, Arthur Bray had a pine panelled microwave on Raymond. He only got the cast iron riveted one when he moved onto Poacher, where it kept it in the bath, along with the coal.

[Neil2]

On reflection, our last boat didn't have an inverter but I did have a small laptop so presumably I must have been able to charge it from the 12v socket, as we did with the mobile phones. We cruised happily for three months solid on that boat though we did have to do a bit of stationary engine running as we didn't have solar.

 

IIRC I think the main reason for blowing £30 on an inverter was so my wife could use her hair straighteners.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Neil2

[bargemast]

True, but you can get non-electric one.

 

http://www.greencleaningmagazine.com/3-efficient-hand-washing-machines/

 

That doesn't look bad, wonder when-and where they're starting to sell them.

 

Peter.

[Tony Brooks]

My experience with 12v laptop chargers is BAD most don't work at all some work poorly few work properly, I think I've paid for ten, bit only one continues to work. I've never heard of a desktop that's run properly off 12v.

 

 

I think that with 12V lap top supplies you need to be aware that some laptop manufacturers deign things so the laptop only works with their 12V power supply so if you got one from Ebay/Amazon/Maplin there is a chance that it will not work.

 

I have had two 12V universal lap top supplies and both work fine and have done over the past 10 years or so. The original one that got misplaced for a while is still working. However I did research and make sure the manufacturers of my laptops did not play silly games with their customers. I also make sure the supply cable to the socket is heavy enough to avoid most of the voltdrop drawing 10 amps or more the length of the boat may imply.

 

My laptops were a Fujitsu-Siemens and now an older Lenovo. The first supply was from Maplin and eh second one by one of the budget PC peripheral makers.

[Arthur Brown]

The basic question of the post has to be answered that it is very possible to live with only 12v, In reality it's quite possible to live without electricity -half of the world's population does.

 

However a further look at the situation indicates that electricity is now essential to our (UK) style of life, and that some things simply work better when powered from 240v rather than 12 or 24. Where the OP wishes to place their own personal lifestyle on the "needs electricity" lifeline and how much mains they really need is up to them, but most people do have some 12v and some 240v on their boats.

[Tony Brooks]

The basic question of the post has to be answered that it is very possible to live with only 12v, In reality it's quite possible to live without electricity -half of the world's population does.

 

However a further look at the situation indicates that electricity is now essential to our (UK) style of life, and that some things simply work better when powered from 240v rather than 12 or 24. Where the OP wishes to place their own personal lifestyle on the "needs electricity" lifeline and how much mains they really need is up to them, but most people do have some 12v and some 240v on their boats.

 

I agree but do not feel in any way deprived by having a basic almost totally 12V boat.boat

[cuthound]

That doesn't look bad, wonder when-and where they're starting to sell them.

 

Peter.

You could import this from the States?

 

https://www.amazon.com/The-Laundry-POD-LP001WHT-White/dp/B005FD7Z82

[OldGoat]

Alan de Enfield, on 22 Oct 2016 - 1:50 PM, said:

 

Maybe you (or I) misunderstood the question

 

You appear to be saying that 12v living is possible (of course it is) but you achieve it by using a 12v - 220v inverter, which is what most of the posts have said.

 

My understanding of the question was "is living solely on 12v possible" (ie no 220 v by any means)

I'm Obliged....

I took it as an opportunity to broaden it a little bit to include a teensy-weensy bit of voltage and frequency transmogrification to give the OP some now-considered-essential creature comforts without requiring a power station.

 

However I did edit the original post to correct my misreading.

Edited October 22, 2016 by OldGoat