Converting to butty

[Catnip King]

I have 2 boats. 60ft & 70ft. I want to take out the engine from the 70ft and get the butty discount. Is it just as simple as remove engine and let CRT know? anyone done this before?

[FadeToScarlet]

You'll probably want to make a much bigger rudder (ellum) for your butty, as it won't have a flow of water from a prop over it, so needs to be much bigger to be effective.

 

I found running blocks to be very useful when butty boating, which could probably be arranged without too much trouble- that way, the motor steerer hasn't got to be taking in armfuls of wet snubber whilst trying to steer before breasting up.

[Ray T]

I would suggest plugging up the hole where the prop shaft was.

 

You may find that the rudder on the boat which becomes a butty will be too small to be of any use. Try steering a motor out of gear and see how well it works or doesn't

 

You may need a proper butty sized rudder:

 

http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw200.1.72.9

[Catnip King]

I am hoping I can have the current rudder modified. Would the swan neck be sufficient with a bigger blade on the rudder? Or do I need to get it done like a proper butty?

 

Thanks

[Ray T]

I'm struggling to see how you would make a motor's rudder have a larger surface area to be effective. You cannot go up or down to increase that surface area.

 

The only way is fore and aft with the prop removed.

 

 

 

If you look at the fenders needed to protect the motor's rudder how many will you need if you lengthen that rudder? Also strictly speaking a boats overall length for licensing should include the fenders!

 

I would suggest you find the surface area of a conventional butty rudder and then see if you can match that to a modified motor's rudder.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Ray T

[Tam & Di]

 

I would suggest you find the surface area of a conventional butty rudder and then see if you can match that to a modified motor's rudder.

 

But there is no point in looking at the total surface area - the only relevant part is that which is in the water, and with an empty butty that is generally bogger all.

[Ray T]

 

But there is no point in looking at the total surface area - the only relevant part is that which is in the water, and with an empty butty that is generally bogger all.

 

Yes, but the OP wants to use a de motorised motor as a butty so I took it to be that the whole of the rudder blade would be under water. No point in having some of the blade above the water as the "butty with a counter" will always draw the same depth unless the OP has other plans.

 

Also from my research, it seems that when a butty was empty it was either towed breasted up or on cross straps, which in either case a rudder was not really required on the butty. Having said that I have helmed breasted up with two motors and the "working" motor coped with no one on the helm of the other boat with no engine running. Not so sure with long lining, with the set up the OP proposes?

 

I'm not sure what the OP's intentions are with cruising or not with his de motorised butty.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Ray T

[Tiggs]

I think you need to check the rules and check with the CRT before you do this.

 

A motor without a engine is still a motor, (which is what they might say).

Edited September 24, 2016 by Tiggs

[Dinz]

Just thinking aloud.

Cost of engine removal & mods.

Some cashback for sale of engine.

May well balance out. Probably not though.

 

If engine in 60' detonates? Two immobile boats.

If engine retained in 70' can keep moving.

 

Resale of 70' as butty probably less cash value as no motor.

In mid to long term may balance out with licence savings?

 

Will it be worth it?

[Tam & Di]

 

 

Yes, but the OP wants to use a de motorised motor as a butty so I took it to be that the whole of the rudder blade would be under water. No point in having some of the blade above the water as the "butty with a counter" will always draw the same depth unless the OP has other plans.

 

Also from my research, it seems that when a butty was empty it was either towed breasted up or on cross straps, which in either case a rudder was not really required on the butty.

 

It has been said (correctly) that he can only in practice increase his existing rudder by lengthening it, but he might be misled as your post suggested that he looked at the total surface area of a butty elum, and I was just commenting that he should only look at the submerged part and compare his de-engined thing with that. You are right of course about how a butty would be towed conventionally, and I don't think a motor hull with counter etc would behave the same just because you've removed the engine. It might help if he removed the prop as well, but the weight of the towed boat will be a significant factor in how it would tow. He'd get some initial idea by towing it in its present condition. I doubt that he'd find himself popular on a busy canal though.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Tam & Di

[Catnip King]

Hi all,

 

Most likely I would cross strap them someway and move them like this mostly. I have a mooring so moving isn't going to be often anyway just when we fancy. We don't want to keep the engine because it has a massive engine room and we want to use it that space. One boat is our home which will eventually be a butty hopefully and that engine room to be a new bedroom. The other motor boat is our work space for our business. We don't want to sell the boat we love to get a real butty; ideally want to turn this into our butty. I am no expert in butty boating though very new to it so its why I'm here finding out what to do and if it should be done.

 

Anyway appreciate your replies

Edited September 24, 2016 by Catnip King

[alan_fincher]

Hi all,

 

Most likely I would cross strap them someway and move them like this mostly. I have a mooring so moving isn't going to be often anyway just when we fancy. We don't want to keep the engine because it has a massive engine room and we want to use it that space. One boat is our home which will eventually be a butty hopefully and that engine room to be a new bedroom. The other motor boat is our work space for our business. We don't want to sell the boat we love to get a real butty; ideally want to turn this into our butty. I am no expert in butty boating though very new to it so its why I'm here finding out what to do and if it should be done.

 

Anyway appreciate your replies

I think the cross strap idea will depend on.......

 

1) How deep the front of the towed "butty" boat is in the water. Cross straps tend to only work well when the butty is riding very high. if you have a leisure boat with ballast, a cabin, and its water tanks at the front, it may sit a lot deeper at the front than an empty butty.

2) The draught of your "motor". The deeper that is at the back, the more likely it is to be satisfactory, but if it's a modern boat with (say) a draught of little over a couple of feet, it may not be ideal.

 

When a deep draughted (at the back) working "motor" tows an unloaded butty on cross straps, the draught of the motor may be 3 feet, whereas the butty perhaps only 1 foot, so the prop will largely thrust under the butty.

 

If towing boat is a similar draught at the back end to what it has on cross straps is at the front end, then IMO it will not work well, as you will be pumping water against the "butty" front end which will stop it being used effectively to drive you forwards.

 

Also, although working boat butties were often towed with no steerer on the latter, I wouldn't rely on your 60 foot boat doing the same, unless it is of "working boat" type arrangements.

 

What are your boats like, and specifically what does the "motor" draw at the back, and what does the proposed butty draw (worst case) at the front?

[Catnip King]

I think the cross strap idea will depend on.......

 

1) How deep the front of the towed "butty" boat is in the water. Cross straps tend to only work well when the butty is riding very high. if you have a leisure boat with ballast, a cabin, and its water tanks at the front, it may sit a lot deeper at the front than an empty butty.

2) The draught of your "motor". The deeper that is at the back, the more likely it is to be satisfactory, but if it's a modern boat with (say) a draught of little over a couple of feet, it may not be ideal.

 

When a deep draughted (at the back) working "motor" tows an unloaded butty on cross straps, the draught of the motor may be 3 feet, whereas the butty perhaps only 1 foot, so the prop will largely thrust under the butty.

 

If towing boat is a similar draught at the back end to what it has on cross straps is at the front end, then IMO it will not work well, as you will be pumping water against the "butty" front end which will stop it being used effectively to drive you forwards.

 

Also, although working boat butties were often towed with no steerer on the latter, I wouldn't rely on your 60 foot boat doing the same, unless it is of "working boat" type arrangements.

 

What are your boats like, and specifically what does the "motor" draw at the back, and what does the proposed butty draw (worst case) at the front?

Thanks that's very helpful. The proposed butty is low in the water at the front and the motor is high in the water at the back. I don't think its going to be such a good idea now. It could possibly have worked if I reversed which was going to be the butty but we don't want to do that.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks that's very helpful. The proposed butty is low in the water at the front and the motor is high in the water at the back. I don't think its going to be such a good idea now. It could possibly have worked if I reversed which was going to be the butty but we don't want to do that.

 

Almost certainly cannot work well on cross straps then IMO.

 

We have in the past tried using our tug "Sickle", which is full working boat draught under the counter to tow out (then) leisure boat "Chalice" on straps. "Chalice" was relatively shallow at the front compared to many modern leisure boats, being more "front end high" than many.

 

Frankly, although it would tow, it didn't work particularly well, and I felt a lot of fuel was being used for less progress than I might have hoped for.

 

I'm not sure this is something it is wise to go for, frankly.

 

EDIT:

 

This appears to be us towing on straps on one of the rare occasions we ever did.

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Jrtm]

The diffrence as well is that a butty rudder sits right next to the point of the back end a motor as it has a prop has the rudder a few feet from this point a butty is more effective as the flow of the water comes round the sides and follows the point of the back that then is strait onto the rudder. So surface area maybe small when unloaded but its far more affective than any motor rudder will be you would be best to add a section towards where the prop use to be but will make it very unbalanced and prob very heavy to move

[stagedamager]

We tow our butty on cross straps which is an ex hotel boat. She is the equivalent of half loaded and sits low to the counter of the motor. The issue is getting the prop wash clear. On a loaded butty the wash gets dispersed by the bow which is why you see loaded butties on short and long lines. So. Towing on straps will be OK but expect an increase in fuel consumption by more than you think.

 

Kind regards

 

Dan

[Tam & Di]

The proposed butty is low in the water at the front and the motor is high in the water at the back. I don't think its going to be such a good idea now. It could possibly have worked if I reversed which was going to be the butty but we don't want to do that.

 

From what you now say of the configuration you've effectively got a part loaded "butty", and I think you will find the "butty" tends to make the motor quite difficult to control - it will tend to pull the stern of the motor to one side or the other a lot of the time, plus it will be difficult to tow the "butty in a straight line too.

[ditchcrawler]

Would it help to have a vertical plate welded from the back of the swim where the prop would normally be to end just before the rudder stock and cut all the leading edge off the rudder?

[FadeToScarlet]

Hi all,

 

Most likely I would cross strap them someway and move them like this mostly. I have a mooring so moving isn't going to be often anyway just when we fancy. We don't want to keep the engine because it has a massive engine room and we want to use it that space. One boat is our home which will eventually be a butty hopefully and that engine room to be a new bedroom. The other motor boat is our work space for our business. We don't want to sell the boat we love to get a real butty; ideally want to turn this into our butty. I am no expert in butty boating though very new to it so its why I'm here finding out what to do and if it should be done.

 

Anyway appreciate your replies

Sounds like the 70' boat, with engine room, might be better at towing than the 60' boat. What engine does it have?

 

Your other option is to keep the 70' as your main home boat, sell the 60' workshop boat, and buy a real butty to tow around. No issues with licencing, it'll tow properly, and it sounds like your 70' boat will be more suitable.

[MtB]

Isn't there something about the butty needing to share the same home mooring and licence renewal being in sync with the motor in order to get the 50% licnce discount?

[alan_fincher]

Isn't there something about the butty needing to share the same home mooring and licence renewal being in sync with the motor in order to get the 50% licnce discount?

Both licences must start from the same date.

 

The butty must only ever move paired with its nominated motor, (although I assume taking a motor down single locks and then going back to bow haul the butty is allowed!)

 

Nothing stated about a home mooring, I think, so could presumably comply with both above without actually having one, provided you are "bona fide for navigation".

[Jrtm]

Would it help to have a vertical plate welded from the back of the swim where the prop would normally be to end just before the rudder stock and cut all the leading edge off the rudder?

This would prob help but you may find you needs to add more of a swim on then just a plate in the gap as to may find this helps to keep it straiter but may still make bends harder and the plate will act as a rudder i would add a small v into the gap to extend the swim even if was tacked on so could easly be removed later if needed to convert back.

[Jrtm]

Still 50% isnt much to get off for a boat that cant be really do much what i mean is even at £500 is alot for a butty in my opp. But i sopose if the op only ever boats with both then i guess its a good compromise.

 

I would say a v added to the swim to meet the current rudder and this then made a bit longer by a few inches and then made as taller e.g. from the edge of the rudder up about 3 inches out the water till about 1/2 inch from the counter this would add to quite a bit of extra steering and better water flow around it making it far more effective you may find you wouldnt need to mod the rudder at all with a well designed swim extention.

[paddy r]

You would need to change your insurance on the motor for towing,register them as a pair. licence will run at the same start date.Despite what some may say you would need someone on the butty while towing on cross straps as wind,passing boats,by wash,people running their engine in gear tied up all affect the way the butty behaves,