Wooden tops?

[KVico]

Hi everyone I'm new

I'm seriously considering becoming a livaboard soon after just daydreaming about it for years, and have come across a wooden top boat or two in my browsing. I've read quite a few blogposts/ guides/threads on this forum and the feeling seems to be negative generally about them. The main concernseems to be maintenance, but I wondered what that actually involves. Painting once a year doesn't seem too bad.

I think I like them more, or the idea of them more than steel tops, but also they tend to be cheaper and I have a small budget, so that is appealing. But there aren't many around.

I don't think they are made anymore, so they tend to be older which is a concern for the steel thickness.

I wondered also how they are constructed - is there the outer layer then insulation then the lining, or is it one layer of wood? Does the inside have to be painted too? I like the look of wood but many boats are painted all white.

Any thoughts / advice welcome!

P.S please forgive if my writing is unclear, I have communication difficulties.

[Jerra]

Hi KVico Welcome to the forum.

 

I can be of no help about wooden tops but I find your post perfectly clear and understandable. Don't worry about such things.

[cuthound]

The problem with wooden tops, and also grp tops, is that the join between two dissimilar materials is always a potential source of leaks.

 

Also wooden tops can take a LOT of maintenance.

[MtB]

Hi everyone I'm new

I'm seriously considering becoming a livaboard soon after just daydreaming about it for years, and have come across a wooden top boat or two in my browsing. I've read quite a few blogposts/ guides/threads on this forum and the feeling seems to be negative generally about them. The main concernseems to be maintenance, but I wondered what that actually involves. Painting once a year doesn't seem too bad.

I think I like them more, or the idea of them more than steel tops, but also they tend to be cheaper and I have a small budget, so that is appealing. But there aren't many around.

I don't think they are made anymore, so they tend to be older which is a concern for the steel thickness.

I wondered also how they are constructed - is there the outer layer then insulation then the lining, or is it one layer of wood? Does the inside have to be painted too? I like the look of wood but many boats are painted all white.

Any thoughts / advice welcome!

P.S please forgive if my writing is unclear, I have communication difficulties.

 

 

Welcome KVico,

 

Your communications appear fine in writing...

 

Yes 'wooden tops' have a charm of their own missing from steel tops. Due to the smell of the wood, I think. The problem with them isn't just painting, it is water leaks. Rain gets in, rots the wood, drips on your bed (its always the bed) and fixing water leaks in a wooden top is nigh on impossible in my experience.

 

Wood is a perishable material so a wooden top is going to rot eventually. How soon depends on how effectively you can keep the rain at bay. I suspect wooden tops often get sold when the owner finally gives up the battle to keep it watertight, regardless of what they might be telling you to your face!

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Boats with a wood superstructure tend to be found on older narrowboats (pre 1980?) and as ypu are aware, maintenance costs to both the top and hull are high

 

If I had a limited budget I would steer clear of them.

 

Good Luck.

 

M

Edited July 18, 2016 by LEO

[David Mack]

Fulbourne has a wooden back cabin, built by Warwickshire Fly in about 1986. The cabin is still sound, and rot free, although we have had some leaks where it joins the original steel engine room structure. The key to our success has been the very hard resin-faced plywood used to skin the sides and the roof, together with keeping on top of the maintenance.

 

If water is allowed to get into the structure, then rot can get a hold, and then a wooden cabin can be a bit of a nightmare. But some have managed to save a wooden cabin by skinning it with welded steel sheet, or by using the West epoxy system.

[koukouvagia]

I've skinned the back cabin of our butty with the West epoxy resin system, but it still requires a lot of maintenance as others have said. I reckon I spend about a couple of weeks a year keeping the weather at bay, filling, painting, removing wet wood etc.

I know that if I were restoring the butty again I'd have the cabin skinned with steel.

There are historic boats around which have had really good wooden cabins nicely painted and lettered. You see the same boast two or three years later when no maintenance has been done and notice that wood has started to rot, the paint has begun t peel and an expensive and time consuming job looms.

 

If you are buying a wooden top you will not know whether the water has got inside until damp patches and leaks manifest themselves. Before we had a steel undercloth conversion on the butty, there was a wooden cabin. This looked fine until we stripped out the inside in preparation for the steel work. Not only did we discover dry rot quietly festering away but the iron just below the gunwales was rusting through from the inside where the water had got in. We had no idea of the extent of the problem till we started to dismantle the cabin.

 

I would be very wary of buying a wooden top boat.

[Chris T]

My dad used to do a lot of the woodwork on our beloved wooden top but he is no longer able to, and so we sold her last year (yep, giving up the battle to keep it watertight) to someone who was planning to put a steel top on.

 

Our logic was that (in my dad) we had the expertise and tools to upkeep / repair a wooden top ourselves, but it was definitely a continual maintenance job. We had her for over 17 years though, and probably couldn't have afforded an all steel boat when we bought her, so no regrets whatsoever.

 

She was built in 1971 with a 1/4 inch steel hull, but the hull was in better condition than many much newer boats when we sold her. Ours too had an outer skin on top of the wood structure. Inside was wooden beams and formica type panels (it was the '70s...). No insulation that we ever found.

[Tiggs]

Hi everyone I'm new

The main concernseems to be maintenance, but I wondered what that actually involves.

Painting once a year doesn't seem too bad.

I think I like them more, or the idea of them more than steel tops, but also they tend to be cheaper and I have a small budget, so that is appealing.

I don't think they are made anymore, so they tend to be older which is a concern for the steel thickness.

I wondered also how they are constructed - is there the outer layer then insulation then the lining, or is it one layer of wood? Does the inside have to be painted too? I like the look of wood but many boats are painted all white.

Any thoughts / advice welcome!

 

 

Well, having lived on and maintained a wooden top narrowboat, I'll try to answer your questions

BUT it does depend a lot on the quality of the boat in the first place too. Ours was a '59 Les Allan.

 

Painting: This needs doing once about every 2-3 years using good quality paint. Every 2nd or 3rd time strip back to bare wood and re-prime. You can do this at the same frequency as blacking.

But this is not the only maintenance needed if there is a leak - but we never really had any although many people with wooden tops did.

We kept the roof well painted with garage floor paint.

The design of the hull having 1 inch up stands so that the wood was over these to stop water getting in, also a silicon seal between wood and metal along the gunwhales I think meant that we didn't have any leak issues.

 

Steel thickness is less but steel quality was better. We did have the bottom re-plated when the boat was 40+ years old, but we need not have done this as we could just have had some individual areas done instead.

 

Our boat had (it still has) steel bars holding the roof every 2 feet or so.

Walls were constructed as follows: 1/2 inch marine ply, framed, about 1 1/2 inch fibre glass insulation then tongue and groove on the inside. Over most of the inside was also another 1/4 inch of ply but this was added after the boat was built.

 

The inside was varnished or painted when we felt like it, more often we just cleaned it off.

 

If you are looking at white boats they are not wood they are almost certainly fibre glass!

 

(and many old wooden top boats have been covered with fibre glass in an attempt to keep out the water - but many of these look very bad IMO)

 

So, if you want a wooden one, I'd suggest buying one originally made by a reputable maker, and check it out very carefully for leaks.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Tiggs

[alan_fincher]

Don't worry about the information in your posts, and the questions you ask. They are quite clear, and far more easily understood that much of what appears on here. (Sorry that sounds a bit patronising - certainly not my intention).

 

The problem in answering the question is that there are many different types of boat that pass as "wooden top".

 

One method is to plank over frames, possibly with tongue and groove board, then to clad in a waterproof hardboard like "Masonite", probably with a layer of felt introduced between the two.

 

But others may just rely on a plywood cabin, which could be very thick, or, indeed, not very thick at all.

 

But the types that use a GRP sandwich are often lumped in as "wooden tops", though of course strictly they are not.

 

In the 1960s and 1970s it was not unusual to have no insulation layer other than the planking and over-cladding, but if insulation has been added, it will be inside this, usually with a second internal wood lining. The problem then is that if water does penetrate the outer skin, and you have (in particular) Rockwool type insulation sandwich between two layers, this can become sodden with water that gets in, and rot can result.

 

Any actual timber that is outside a boat, e,g, handrails, cants, side decks, will generally not hold paint very long at all, (this applies even if it is a wooden addition to an otherwise steel shell).

 

Condition is everything, and very hard to give a firm opinion without looking at a actual boat being asked about. If they smell musty when you go inside, there is usually a reason why, unfortunately.

Before anybody says I'm being unduly cautions, I would add that in the bast I have not only owned a wooden cabined boat, but I have also actually constructed such a cabin from scratch.

[Mick1978]

I've just bought a 40 foot wooden topped springer, i think it's possibly late 70's or early 80's. I bought it with the understanding that just the roof section of the top needed replacing, it turned out the whole thing is rotten. Make sure you check wherever possible of the condition of the whole structure. I have been lucky with the steel in the hull as all my thickness readings were around 5mm still so the steel quality isn't an issue. I bought mine because of the cost of buying a steel topped narrowboat, I'm now in the process of tearing off the wood and replacing it with a complete steel top. If I'd have known the extent of the rot I'd have waited and saved the extra to buy a full steel constructed one. It's certainly a project ?. Just don't jump in like i did, look at as many boats as possible. Good luck ?

[KVico]

Thankyou for all your replies, I will have to look carefully at any wooden tops that I come across. Although they don't come up that often so it may have to be a steel one anyway.

[Mike Jordan]

I've only ever built one timber topped boat, it was constructed with 22mm match boarding over timber frames, covered with roofing felt and finally Masonite hardboard. It proved very difficult to keep in good order and I wouldn't have another at any price.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the risk of severely damaging the top with one touch against anything solid like a bridge. Many glass fibre topped boats used to be fitted with curved steel bridge guards to reduce this risk.

[cuthound]

Many glass fibre topped boats used to be fitted with curved steel bridge guards to reduce this risk.

I remember hiring boats with those in the 70's and 80's.

 

Cunningly designed, so that when getting off the front of the boat, you banged your head on them, as you couldn't see them because of the way the curved fron the corner of the roof to the bow.

[alan_fincher]

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned is the risk of severely damaging the top with one touch against anything solid like a bridge. Many glass fibre topped boats used to be fitted with curved steel bridge guards to reduce this risk.

 

Often known as "idiot bars".

 

The Wyvern Shipping Company still have two wooden tops on their hire fleet - goodness knows how old they are now. Almost certainly the construction is the same as you mention - Masonite over T&G boards, with roofing felt between the two.

 

EDIT:

 

Boat on which I am starting to construct a new timber cabin in the 1970s. Only the back end in progress, initially, whilst part of original plywood based cabin was retained as temporary secure storage......

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by alan_fincher

[pipistrelle]

Maybe I'm impulsive, but the cabin on my new boat is wooden and that didn't make me think twice about buying her. I know the (20-year-old) cabin will eventually need redoing, but if it lasts for another 10-15 years then probably the rest of the fit-out, which is contemporaneous will also need to go then. I like the look of the wooden cabin/vaguely authentic wooden gunwhales.

 

I am now even more terrified of hitting bridges than I already was, though, lest my home collapse like a house of cards.

[MtB]

Maybe I'm impulsive, but the cabin on my new boat is wooden and that didn't make me think twice about buying her. I know the (20-year-old) cabin will eventually need redoing, but if it lasts for another 10-15 years then probably the rest of the fit-out, which is contemporaneous will also need to go then. I like the look of the wooden cabin/vaguely authentic wooden gunwhales.

 

I am now even more terrified of hitting bridges than I already was, though, lest my home collapse like a house of cards.

 

I LURVE the smell, look and feel of wooden boats, including wooden tops. V jealous. I might just have to buy one soon. Along with some buckets.

[alan_fincher]

Maybe I'm impulsive, but the cabin on my new boat is wooden and that didn't make me think twice about buying her. I know the (20-year-old) cabin will eventually need redoing, but if it lasts for another 10-15 years then probably the rest of the fit-out, which is contemporaneous will also need to go then. I like the look of the wooden cabin/vaguely authentic wooden gunwhales.

 

But I thought most of it was under cloths, so when you say "you like the look of it, do you mean from the inside?

[pipistrelle]

I meant that I like the look of the cloths and the wooden gunwhales.

And then I realised that you could presumably have a clothed-up steel top as well, d'oh!

[Catnip King]

Ours is wooden top with a skin. Its a malcolm braine boat and is still in very good condition. The space is better to.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Catnip King

[Jrtm]

There fine keep the paint in good condition and stop any standing water keep the drain points free and if water builds up in a new bit where there is no drain point put one in if pos. Keep an eye out for the odd drip of water getting in dont just go its condensation. Poor water on the roof on a dry day and see if it comes back if its in a re accruing place if you find a bubble get rid rub right down protect and repaint a few hours of looking and odd bit of patch repair can cost a little fortune but better than a new pannel or trying to fit a new bit in as once there is a joint water will find it. Try and over lap all joints and have the attitude water travels down not up so keep that in mind when over lapping.

Last bit of advise dont put plants on it the hold moisture and can rott the wood below where they stand even past some paint as some paint is breathable or a little fexable.