Trad boat and old engines.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Visiting the Tank Museum at Bovington, the first tanks killed a lot of there crew with carbon monoxide from leaky engines. Watched the prog on bbc on the breakout at Amis saw the same thing. How many old engines in trad boats are doing the same. Time to look at good seals on the doors into the living quarters.

[billS]

I don't think I can recall any of the recent deaths on boats caused by CO poisoning attributed to fumes from the engine. I think they have all been attributed to faulty heating systems or generators used within the confines of the boat.

[Athy]

...or to leave those doors, and the engine room side doors, open to promote the flow of air and prevent the build-up of gases, perhaps?

 

I recently saw some footage of French military narrow gauge railways on the Western Front in WW1. The usual power for the troop and munitions trains was a specially designed steam locomotive called a Pechot. However, the plumes of smoke from its chimneys gave the train's position away to the enemy - so the French army ordered Crochat internal-combustion locomotives, which they hoped would be less easily detectable. The piece of film showed one of these hauling a train - and spewing out so much exhaust smoke that the soldiers in the leading wagon must have been half-dead from asphyxia before they even reached the front line.

[RLWP]

Hi Vic, I think I'll keep my discussion with you to Facebook

 

Richard

[MtB]

Visiting the Tank Museum at Bovington, the first tanks killed a lot of there crew with carbon monoxide from leaky engines. Watched the prog on bbc on the breakout at Amis saw the same thing. How many old engines in trad boats are doing the same. Time to look at good seals on the doors into the living quarters.

 

 

None.

 

The tank drivers sat inside the tank. A boater stands outside in the fresh air, not inside a box with the engine.

Although I geuss your point about the door seals is that crew might travel inside the cabin. I'd suggest the amount of exhaust fumes necessary to cause any harm would be immediately obvious. Servicemen inside the tanks were probably told to stop complaining and get on with it.

[Athy]

 

 

None.

 

The tank drivers sat inside the tank. A boater stands outside in the fresh air, not inside a box with the engine.

Although I geuss your point about the door seals is that crew might travel inside the cabin. I'd suggest the amount of exhaust fumes necessary to cause any harm would be immediately obvious. Servicemen inside the tanks were probably told to stop complaining and get on with it.

Well aye - but his crew/ passengers/ pets?

[cereal tiller]

 

 

None.

 

The tank drivers sat inside the tank. A boater stands outside in the fresh air, not inside a box with the engine.

Although I geuss your point about the door seals is that crew might travel inside the cabin. I'd suggest the amount of exhaust fumes necessary to cause any harm would be immediately obvious. Servicemen inside the tanks were probably told to stop complaining and get on with it.

Unless their boat is fitted with a Pram Hood?

 

CT

[billS]

Plus the poor buggers had no access to CO alarms. I wonder if canaries would have worked, but I suspect they might have died of fright due to all the noise!

[MtB]

It's an interesting point easily dismissed as it's never happened. If/when the first boater dies from CO poisoning form the engine, we will all sau 'how could we never have thought of that obvious risk?"

 

I think the OP has a good point and a CO detector in the engine room would be a Good Idea.

Is a leaking exhaust pipe a BSS fail?

(Or is it not part of the BSS?)

[Athy]

It's an interesting point easily dismissed as it's never happened. If/when the first boater dies from CO poisoning form the engine, we will all sau 'how could we never have thought of that obvious risk?"

 

I think the OP has a good point and a CO detector in the engine room would be a Good Idea.

But you know how noisy and clanky some of those engines can be - you'd never hear the damn' thing going off.

[RLWP]

It's an interesting point easily dismissed as it's never happened. If/when the first boater dies from CO poisoning form the engine, we will all sau 'how could we never have thought of that obvious risk?"

 

I think the OP has a good point and a CO detector in the engine room would be a Good Idea.

Is a leaking exhaust pipe a BSS fail?

(Or is it not part of the BSS?)

 

It's many orders of magnitude different to the poor sods in a tin box with a high revving ancient petrol engine

 

Richard

[billS]

I had a CO detector in my engine room, but I ended up taking it out because it kept being triggered when the door were closed and the batteries were charging.

[crossley]

In a similar vein, crankcase fumes are particularly nasty,don't be breathing it in long term in confined engine rooms, it really doesn't do you any good breathing in oil mist and partly burned god knows what.

Some of the older traditional engines have little in the way of any crankcase ventilation, a gauze filter,a bit of pipe etc.

A small vent pipe, say 1/2" through the roof wouldn't look out of place in a "traditional" engine room.

[Jrtm]

There were a few engines that got changed due to fumes. worcester (tug) use to have a twin kumbholt (not sure of spelling) but was changed early on due to fumes in the tunnels.

 

Im sure a few people felt ill from tunnel boating with bolinders.

[bargemast]

There were a few engines that got changed due to fumes. worcester (tug) use to have a twin kumbholt (not sure of spelling) but was changed early on due to fumes in the tunnels.

 

Im sure a few people felt ill from tunnel boating with bolinders.

 

Unless you mean "KROMHOUT" I have no idea what that twin "kumbholt" could have been, it must be a very rare, or even non-excisting make.

 

Peter.

[J R ALSOP]

I rather think the 30 hp Bolinder that is currently in it was installed a long time ago, it was in when Waterways disposed of it, I can't think waterways would have fitted it to replace a relative new engine, they would have fitted a Lister.

[Derek R.]

Well aye - but his crew/ passengers/ pets?

 

Seriously? There is ample ventilation. Passengers/pets in a back cabin would be seated with the rear doors or at least the slide open. If a cabin'd boat, doors to engine can be closed, windows can be opened. Whilst boating most folk will be outside anyway.

 

Consider the fate of crew on the steam powered and oil fired K class submarines!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

[Ray T]

Visiting the Tank Museum at Bovington, the first tanks killed a lot of there crew with carbon monoxide from leaky engines. Watched the prog on bbc on the breakout at Amis saw the same thing. How many old engines in trad boats are doing the same. Time to look at good seals on the doors into the living quarters.

 

I would have thought the WW1 tanks would have to be kept fairly sealed against the use of chemical weapons, i. e. gas used right up to the end of the war.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I

[baz gimson]

 

I would have thought the WW1 tanks would have to be kept fairly sealed against the use of chemical weapons, i. e. gas used right up to the end of the war.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I

 

No. The tanks had forced air ventilation

 

 

 

In the Mks I II III &IV air was drawn into the tank through a grill at the rear and passed the length of the tank before exiting through gun ports, vision slots etc. This provided some ventilation and cooling. In the MK V it was drawn through louvres in one side of the rear of tank, passed through the radiator and exited through louvres on the opposite side. There was no airflow forward. As a result, as I've described earlier, it got so hot that the soft metal seals on the exhaust failed and leaked CO into the tank. This would be odourless and difficult to detect. The solution was to encase the engine and use the flywheel as a fan to blow air into this and out a new vent in the roof. At the same time this would increase air flow in the rest of the tank. Subsequent designs put the engine in a separate compartment.

 

From here........http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140209-more-tank-crew-killed-by-carbon-monoxide/&page=1

 

if you bother to read the linked thread above, the CO deaths are shown to be a popular myth

Edited July 7, 2016 by baz gimson

[Jrtm]

 

Unless you mean "KROMHOUT" I have no idea what that twin "kumbholt" could have been, it must be a very rare, or even non-excisting make.

 

Peter.

Yes thats the one!

Its was only fitted for a very brief time from when was first build.

[Athy]

 

Unless you mean "KROMHOUT" I have no idea what that twin "kumbholt" could have been, it must be a very rare, or even non-excisting make.

 

Peter.

I think it's very probable that he means a Kromhout - which may have been a Gardner built under licence.

[Derek R.]

There was a program on the BBC three years ago still available on iplayer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pvbds/tankies-tank-heroes-of-world-war-ii-episode-1 which covers WWII, but there were deaths caused by some perhaps unexpected means. WWI saw the first tanks being deployed, and during a demonstration given for Royalty, one was driven over a severe obstacle. Once over, the crew were to come out and present themselves, but only one did. The others had been knocked unconscious within the tank due to the severe movement.

 

A bit but hey . . .

Edited July 8, 2016 by Derek R.

[bargemast]

I think it's very probable that he means a Kromhout - which may have been a Gardner built under licence.

 

billybobbooth's answer in the previous message gave the answer already, it must have been an old KROMHOUT Glowbulb engine.

 

The Kromhout-Gardners were almost straight copies of the real Gardners like the one you have, and they weren't known to smoke at all, and they were of a much later date.

 

Peter.

[jake_crew]

In a tank, the crew are inside a fairly well sealed cabin, very close to the engine.

 

In a trad style boat, the crew are generally outside, and the engine room well ventilated.

[Jrtm]

I know on boats it was tunnels that were problems with ventilation not known a crew to fell unwell or die when just boating along from fumes. Only way i can see it on a boat is by the stove top not fitting properly when shut up at night while sleeping