Landlocked waterways

[Pluto]

 

Search out the route of the railway too then

 

Richard

If you are up in Scotland, check out the Aberdeenshire Canal. Although a railway was built on its route, there are still some surviving features. There is also the Carlingwark Canal, associated with the River Dee near Kirkcudbright.

Interesting stuff, especially confirmation that the Bridgwater was planned and built in isolation initially

 

Splendid isolation really is rather solitary - I used to do a talk on "The Isolated Waterways" but I meant those not connected to the main system. In that context the Bridgwater and Taunton was "isolated" but it was intended to communicate with the seagoing trade at Bridgwater, allowing Taunton better access to the coastal markets of the Bristol Channel and beyond, not just trade from Taunton to Bridgwater.

I am still not sure you can say the Bridgewater was isolated, given the earlier 1737 Act linking Worsley to the Mersey & Irwell Navigation. Certainly the original Bridgewater scheme, which linked Worsley with Salford, rather than Manchester, was set down so that it didn't interfere with the M&IN. Is that isolated, or just an economic decision not to connect to a competitor?

[magpie patrick]

If you are up in Scotland, check out the Aberdeenshire Canal. Although a railway was built on its route, there are still some surviving features. There is also the Carlingwark Canal, associated with the River Dee near Kirkcudbright.

I am still not sure you can say the Bridgewater was isolated, given the earlier 1737 Act linking Worsley to the Mersey & Irwell Navigation. Certainly the original Bridgewater scheme, which linked Worsley with Salford, rather than Manchester, was set down so that it didn't interfere with the M&IN. Is that isolated, or just an economic decision not to connect to a competitor?

 

I think we're drifting - I actually said landlocked, and then pushed that definition slightly to mean couldn't trade with another waterway - a connection by tramway or cross wharf interchange would unlock it.

 

I'm also interested in whether they were physically landlocked not conceptually. The presence of an act linking Worsley to the Mersey doesn't affect this if the navigation wasn't built. There are other definitions, and I love the way things evolve on here, but if we're not careful we all end up talking at cross purposes about different things.

[bag 'o' bones]

 

The Shropshire canal was originally joined to the Severn with a lock close to Coalport bridge, this was removed quite early in the navigations life due to constant problems with the Severn.

 

Do you have a reference? Far as I'm aware the canal was never joined to the river.

[Laurence Hogg]

Do you have a reference? Far as I'm aware the canal was never joined to the river.

 

The OS 6" 1888 shows the lock site from memory, most in depth works on the canal mention it too, Sutton wharf is very nearby so that may have provided a reason, also the canal off the Worfe which runs to the old dairy factory known as Fort Pendleton could also be another.

[AMModels]

 

The OS 6" 1888 shows the lock site from memory, most in depth works on the canal mention it too, Sutton wharf is very nearby so that may have provided a reason, also the canal off the Worfe which runs to the old dairy factory known as Fort Pendleton could also be another.

 

I would have thought continuing the inclined plane down to river level would have made more sense, you can see the plane and canal on this http://maps.nls.uk/view/101594689 from 1883 on the 1903 one the plane is disused. http://maps.nls.uk/view/101594686 cant see a canal lock on either of those.

[bag 'o' bones]

The OS 6" 1888 shows the lock site from memory, most in depth works on the canal mention it too, Sutton wharf is very nearby so that may have provided a reason, also the canal off the Worfe which runs to the old dairy factory known as Fort Pendleton could also be another.

Not convinced. The canal never reached sutton wharf and fort pendleton is some 3 mile plus down stream. References would be useful

[Laurence Hogg]

Not convinced. The canal never reached sutton wharf and fort pendleton is some 3 mile plus down stream. References would be useful

 

I never said the canal reached those places, read the post again. The lock could have assisted tub boats to reach both Sutton Wharf and the canal to Fort Pendleton. As for references, there's plenty if you google it on the various websites including the Shropshire Canal and the line at Coalport.

[Derek R.]

Laurence is correct in saying there was a lock constructed to connect the Coalport Canal to the River Severn at Coalport, though it seems an unlikely prospect. To quote from http://shropshirehistory.com/canals/canals/shropshire.htm

 

"At the eastern end of the section of canal below the Hay Incline (often referred to as the Coalport Canal), a lock was constructed to the River Severn with a drop of 22ft 10 inches. However, the small tub-boats using the Shropshire Canal were not suited to the unpredictable waters of the Severn and no river barges from the river could use the canal's inclined planes. The river lock was quickly found to be another expensive mistake and was soon filled in."

 

It's in part of the text just below the cross section diagram of an inclined plane.

[AMModels]

At school we visited the museum Blists Hill/Coalbrookdale/Coalport/Ironbridge area and did projects on what we saw, mine was on the Hay inclined plane and tub boats explaining how we use locks 'nowadays' and how planes wouldnt work for bigger boats, never having heard of Foxton back then.

Totally different in operation, design and scale of course.

[hughc]

There is of course the Woodeaves Canal near to Fenny Bentley. It was marked on the 1st edition as a mill lade but was used to boat supplies to a cotton mill. I haven't been able to determine the boat or boats used but they must have been fairly small. Regards, HughC.

[magpie patrick]

At school we visited the museum Blists Hill/Coalbrookdale/Coalport/Ironbridge area and did projects on what we saw, mine was on the Hay inclined plane and tub boats explaining how we use locks 'nowadays' and how planes wouldnt work for bigger boats, never having heard of Foxton back then.

Totally different in operation, design and scale of course.

 

Two things to reinforce your point

 

1) Most tub boat planes and lifts were late 18th century, it took nearly 100 years for a lift carrying "full size" boats to be built at Anderton

 

2) Foxton is a comparatively small lift (rise) compared to some of the tub boat ones, Hobbacott on the Bude Canal was 225 feet for example

 

I would have thought continuing the inclined plane down to river level would have made more sense, you can see the plane and canal on this http://maps.nls.uk/view/101594689 from 1883 on the 1903 one the plane is disused. http://maps.nls.uk/view/101594686 cant see a canal lock on either of those.

 

Inclined planes into variable water levels are trouble, especially if they are counterbalanced. The bottom boat might be half way across the river when the top boat gets to it's destination in times of flood, or unable to reach the river in times of drought.

[magpie patrick]

There is of course the Woodeaves Canal near to Fenny Bentley. It was marked on the 1st edition as a mill lade but was used to boat supplies to a cotton mill. I haven't been able to determine the boat or boats used but they must have been fairly small. Regards, HughC.

 

That is a totally new one on me (which doesn't happen often - Heartland was the last to manage it) I don't even know where in the country Fenny Bentley is!

 

Small boats would still be viable for some traffic's bearing in mind the amount a horse could carry or pull and the state of the roads. This would be especially true if the road was bad and the watercourse already existed for something else

[1st ade]

 

I don't even know where in the country Fenny Bentley is!

 

You should - you grew up near there!

[Pluto]

I would expect short sections of rivers an mill races to have been used fairly extensively, though not recorded. There are a number mentioned in Waterways and Canal-Building in Medieval England, edited by John Blair. One example would be the use of the River Aire for bringing stone from Bramley Fall for Kirkstall Abbey.

 

On the idea of the Bridgewater originally being land locked, it would have been connected to the Mersey & Irwell by road from both the proposed original terminus in Salford, and from Castlefield. The problem with the definition 'isolated waterway' is that it will depend on what was carried. If the cargo was for general sale or distribution, there would always be an onward connection. Isolated canals/waterways would have to serve the specific industrial needs of just one consumer to be truly isolated.

[Alan Taylor]

What about the canal near you at Vobster? Didn't it have a fancy 'royal' name? There's a house there where it runs through the garden.

[Laurence Hogg]

There is a landlocked and virtually unknown canal in the grounds of Chillington Hall (home of the Giffard family) near Brewood. It is still marked as "The Canal" on maps today. The canal runs roughly east from the tip of the "Great Pool" towards the house, the course is then infilled but on the earliest OS maps a curved section can be seen heading in the direction of the avenues (which crosses the Shroppie), these end at a forge.

Also there is some evidence of a possible northern cut which could have connected with the turnpike road of the time. The canal which now ends at the Great Pool is reputed to have been used to transport goods from Codsall Wood to the Hall, if this was the case there must have been another extension from the Great Pool, however the construction of the M54 has all but certainly wiped this out.

 

If you get the chance to have a look do so, today the watered section still looks like a proper canal.

 

A reference to it can be found here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=11BpCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT84&lpg=PT84&dq=chillington+hall+the+canal&source=bl&ots=irqzwCNzBq&sig=B6-KV8horkUSqAeTQkfMFfd2RSU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq0sGRjqXNAhXRfiYKHRP8CJ04ChDoAQg5MAA#v=onepage&q=chillington%20hall%20the%20canal&f=false