new mooring t&c's

[magnetman]

I have a CRT residential mooring where I live with the woman and the offspring (a total of 2 infant units) on a boat.

 

I had an envelope with several things in it in the post. There were some notes about changes to mooring conditions. I did notice that they included a condition that you do not use the mooring as your primary residence. as we pay council tax and have a postcode and a letterbox etc I am not too bovvered but I did start wondering what its all about.

 

It has been mentioned on the forum before - are CRT starting to look more closely at non residential long term moorings with a view to perhaps installing services and converting them to residential or attempting to prevent people from living on leisure moorings?

 

I haven't read the t&c before but they have sent a little book type thing with "waterside moorings" written on it and it looks like something is going on.

Edited May 21, 2016 by magnetman

[LEO]

Hi,

 

I have been looking at these - take a 'peek' at what happens if you die - the mooring is personal to you and is non transferable (to spouses or partners)............this may extend to residential boats......

 

L.

[magnetman]

Hi,

 

I have been looking at these - take a 'peek' at what happens if you die - the mooring is personal to you and is non transferable (to spouses or partners)............this may extend to residential boats......

 

L.

Yes

 

That was the first thing I noticed

 

Oops. Not ideal for a residential setup !

[ditchcrawler]

Yes

 

That was the first thing I noticed

 

Oops. Not ideal for a residential setup !

Can you change it now to "Joint"

[magnetman]

Was considering that yes if it is an option.

[Witchword]

Surely if you pay council tax on it, it's your primary residence? Or are you paying council tax elsewhere as well?

 

If it's "residential" surely that means you can live there, else it's not "residential", it's "holiday" or "non-residential"? How can CRT say it's residential but ask you not to use it as residential? As if we're all Prince bloody Charles. Ridiculous

[magnetman]

I think they sent the literature to everyone with a CRT mooring. This is the only address I have. I don't own any property or anything silly like that.

 

The bigger picture could include CRT pulling a fast one on residential mooring status - probably something worth fi ding out about sooner rather that later !!

 

One of my neighbours has recently had his boat accepted as a houseboat by HMRC so I think it is probably ok.

 

Typos

Edited May 21, 2016 by magnetman

[Quaysider]

I got this in the post yesterday too... I've filed it with stuff not to worry about - I mean, for the next 6 months, I'm just paying for a mooring with no boat anyway

[LEO]

Can you change it now to "Joint"

 

I thought about this, but the news terms come into force on the 1st June 2016.......

 

The point that I find interesting is that your 'rellies' have use of the mooring for the period you have paid for before expiry of your licence - great if you die having just renewed your licence, but what happens if you have only a month unexpired or you pay monthly?.

 

Whilst my spouse may not want to continue with the mooring, she would want time to dispose of the boat rather than face with the choice of becoming a CCer, especially at such a sensitive time.

 

Not sure that this situation has been thought through carefully, especially by a 'charitable' organisation.

 

L

[LEO]

I got this in the post yesterday too... I've filed it with stuff not to worry about - I mean, for the next 6 months, I'm just paying for a mooring with no boat anyway

 

Hi,

 

It has ramifications, suggest you dig it out of the filing cabinet and consider what happens if you end up in a cold place with a label tied to the big toe......

 

Only joking, but CRT slip these odd changes in.....

[Alan de Enfield]

It has been mentioned on the forum before - are CRT starting to look more closely at non residential long term moorings with a view to perhaps installing services and converting them to residential or attempting to prevent people from living on leisure moorings?

 

 

 

My guess is that C&RT are coming under some pressure (maybe driven by the 'London situation') to stop 'turning a blind eye' to the use of leisure moorings as residential - it may be that they have had contact from the local LA's about the use without proper planning permission, or maybe complaints from 'bricks & mortar' residents.

 

C&RT appear to have shied away from taking responsibility for the misuse of moorings and (as has been said on here) it is down to the LA to take action for PP infringements, so maybe they have.

 

It appears to be another example of tightening up of the previous lax enforcement regime rather than the wholesale issuing of new T&Cs.

 

I think they sent the literature to everyone with a CRT mooring. This is the only address I have. I don't own any property or anything silly like that.

 

The bigger picture could include CRT pulling a fast one on residential mooring status - probably something worth fi ding out about sooner rather that later !!

 

One of my neighbours has recently had his boat accepted as a houseboat by HMRC so I think it is probably ok.

 

Typos

 

HMRC's definition of a Houseboat is very different to C&RTs

 

The HMRC definition is that it must not have an engine, or be capable of (easily) having one fitted :

 

Houseboats are always zero-rated. Houseboats are defined for VAT purposes as ‘boats or other floating decked structures designed or adapted for use solely as places of permanent habitation, and not having the means of, or not capable of being readily adapted for, self propulsion’.

 

So if your boat is classified as a houseboat and you have no means of propulsion (engine), nor any easy way of fitting one in the future, then the houseboat will be VAT-free.

 

C&RTs definition :

 

What is the definition of a Houseboat?

A Houseboat is defined as a boat whose predominant use is for a purpose other than navigation and which, if required for the purpose, has planning permission, for the site where it is moored. A Houseboat may be used for navigation from time to time provided it does not become its predominant use. Houseboat Certificates are generally associated with a particular Canal & River Trust long term mooring permit and carry with them a limited right of assignment of the mooring permit.

Note that this is not the same the definition used by HMRC for VAT purposes1

2. What’s the difference between a standard Pleasure Boat Licence and a Houseboat Certificate

These are alternative forms of licence for keeping a boat on our waterways. The terms and conditions – i.e. your obligations and ours – are essentially the same. You may opt for a houseboat certificate if the predominant use of your boat is NOT for cruising – for example, it is your home and you keep it on a long term mooring.

The main reason why you might want to consider a Houseboat Certificate instead of a standard licence is that, providing you hold a permit issued by the Trust for a long term residential mooring, you gain a limited right of assignment of the permit as and when you decide to sell your boat. The permit and Houseboat Certificate must run concurrently with the same expiry dates.

 

If your friend wishes to have C&RT register his boat as a Houseboat then he will need to cancel his existing licence, and get them to issue a Houseboat certificate for which the dates MUST align with the dates of his mooring contract.

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Paul C]

Has anyone put the old and new terms and conditions side by side and actually determined what the changes are?

[Chewbacka]

Surely if you pay council tax on it, it's your primary residence? Or are you paying council tax elsewhere as well?

 

If it's "residential" surely that means you can live there, else it's not "residential", it's "holiday" or "non-residential"? How can CRT say it's residential but ask you not to use it as residential? As if we're all Prince bloody Charles. Ridiculous

There are some disturbing clauses in this, assuming my reading of it is correct.

In answer to the above, if you have a residential mooring, then you have it in writing that it is residential, therefore the bit about not using it as your main residence does not apply. (clause 6.4.3)

 

If you have a leisure mooring you are not allowed to live on it. (6.4.3) however how CRT choose to enforce this is anyone's guess, but my hope is it will be based upon complaints from locals rather than CRT searching for you.

 

If you have a leisure mooring and you apply for planning permission for it to be residential, then that is a breach of the mooring conditions, and CRT can terminate the agreement. (clause 6.4.5). There is also reference to 'certificate of lawful use', I have not researched this bit possibly that relates to getting a houseboat cert for that location. Again if you do that without their agreement you are heading for trouble.

 

Interestingly the outside must be kept in good order (6.7) and have wash cubicle, toilet and drinking facilities (6.9) which seems to mean that, for example, you can not moor a very basic day fishing boat. Note that it does state 'portable water storage' which would make more sense if it was potable water, so maybe a typo?

 

You must not undertake any work on the boat at the moorings (8.1) without agreement. I hope this is only to be investigated and applied where locals complain - for example making lots of dust and noise at antisocial times, otherwise I am going to struggle to keep the outside in good order (6.7).

 

You must also not cause damage or nuisance to others (8.3c) whilst at the mooring. I wonder if this includes smoke from a boat stove? It probably does.

 

And if you have got into 'trouble' with CRT during the previous 5 years (3.b.ii) they can refuse you a mooring.

 

It will be interesting to see how this is applied in practice.

 

Finally for those with a short temper that get abusive, including (presumably) posts on this forum about identifiable people, clause 8.4 will apply.

[Thorfast]

I have a CRT residential mooring where I live with the woman and the offspring (a total of 2 infant units) on a boat.

 

I had an envelope with several things in it in the post. There were some notes about changes to mooring conditions. I did notice that they included a condition that you do not use the mooring as your primary residence. as we pay council tax and have a postcode and a letterbox etc I am not too bovvered but I did start wondering what its all about.

 

It has been mentioned on the forum before - are CRT starting to look more closely at non residential long term moorings with a view to perhaps installing services and converting them to residential or attempting to prevent people from living on leisure moorings?

 

I haven't read the t&c before but they have sent a little book type thing with "waterside moorings" written on it and it looks like something is going on.

 

Never mind what happens when you kick the bucket......I think this is the bit that will affect a lot of people.

 

It this new in the T and C's or are they just pointing it out as it has been ignored or overlooked for many years?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

If you have a leisure mooring and you apply for planning permission for it to be residential, then that is a breach of the mooring conditions, and CRT can terminate the agreement. (clause 6.4.5). There is also reference to 'certificate of lawful use', I have not researched this bit possibly that relates to getting a houseboat cert for that location. Again if you do that without their agreement you are heading for trouble.

 

 

 

Basically it means that if you (the land owner) believe the use of land for a certain purpose is legal and does not require Planning permission then you apply to the LA for a certificate of Lawful development.

If the LA agree then they will issue a certificate and you can go ahead with your proposal.

 

There is also a convoluted scheme of 'grandfather rights', which we used to apply for a 'Certificate of Lawful development'. This was issued as we had developed the land 20+ years previously on a '3 year time limited PP' and had never subsequently knocked down the building, or, had the fact that it was still in place questioned by the LA.

 

Its a murky convoluted system and about as definitive as some parts of the 1995 Waterways act

[Lady Muck]

 

Never mind what happens when you kick the bucket......I think this is the bit that will affect a lot of people.

 

It this new in the T and C's or are they just pointing it out as it has been ignored or overlooked for many years?

This is new, as is the thing about toilet and sink etc onboard. It's like the camper van rules at Glastonbury. I think theres a lot of boats that don't have them. People never bother to fit them if they have showers and toilets nearby. If they stop liveaboards on leisure moorings in London, will people even want to rent them? They'd at least have to drop the price, leisure moorers are very few and far between because it's just too expensive for most people, to keep a boat, for leisure purposes on them. The only other reason anyone would want a mooring in London would be to run an airbnb on it and you need residential for that. It's not stopping people at some of the leisure moorings in town, though.

And yes they are looking at converting more moorings over to residential, this was a recommendation by the London Assembly when they wrote their report (but I reckon CRT want to do it because they know they can whack the price up). But most of the river Lea would be ruled out from that because LVRP constitution won't allow it. Depends who manages/owns the land that the boats are moored against.

And I know people who have those certificates. I watch with interest.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[magictime]

So from a liveaboard boater's perspective, it looks to me like the burning question is just what CRT mean when they say you can't use a leisure mooring as your primary residence.

 

Does that mean you must have another home that is your primary residence, where you're registered for Council Tax purposes etc., in order to qualify for a leisure mooring? If so, is there any limit to the number of nights/weeks/months you can stay on board on your mooring?

 

Or is there scope for someone with no 'primary residence' to spend some of their time living on board on their leisure mooring, and some of their time living on board away from that mooring, so that it is not being used as a permanent or year-round residence? If so, how much time spent on the mooring is too much?

 

Is 'how many nights can I spend on my leisure mooring?' about to become the new 'how far do I have to move?'

[Lady Muck]

I think some marinas stipulate it but I've not heard of CRT doing so.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[Sir Percy]

... - are CRT starting to look more closely at non residential long term moorings with a view to perhaps installing services and converting them to residential or attempting to prevent people from living on leisure moorings?

 

 

Is there a minimum of facilities/services that they need to provide for Residential? (I think ours are L1 with electricity and water, some public access)

[Lady Muck]

 

Is there a minimum of facilities/services that they need to provide for Residential? (I think ours are L1 with electricity and water, some public access)

I think so, thats definitely what is being proposed to some of our friends on other leisure moorings.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Or is there scope for someone with no 'primary residence' to spend some of their time living on board on their leisure mooring, and some of their time living on board away from that mooring, so that it is not being used as a permanent or year-round residence? If so, how much time spent on the mooring is too much?

 

Is 'how many nights can I spend on my leisure mooring?' about to become the new 'how far do I have to move?'

 

BWML (C&RT by another name) have clearly spelt out the definition of a 'Leisure Mooring' and the requirement to have one.

 

You will not be allowed to apply for (or be granted) leisure mooring unless you submit a copy of a Council tax bill for your 'primary residence'. The bill must be in your name and be the address which you use for all your C&RT / BWML correspondence.

 

Here are the 'rules' :

 

Leisure Mooring

This product is for the boating enthusiast and customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation. It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period. BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina.

 

 

Basically you can liveaboard if :

You leave the Marina for 1 night every 28 days & pay council tax somewhere else.

 

I have been asked to produce our council tax twice in the last 13 months.

 

It would not surprise me if C&RT introduced the same requirements.

 

BWML residential moorings are :

 

Full Residential

Only available at marinas were BWML have gained residential planning approval, council tax is payable at either a composite or individual rate (please contact the Marina Manager for more information regarding council tax). Minimum contract 12 months, customers requiring longer security should discuss this with their Local Marina Management Team who will advise of the Berthing Lease requirements

[Sir Percy]

I think so, thats definitely what is being proposed to some of our friends on other leisure moorings.

 

Ah right - a concrete proposal. Do you know what's being offered to them?

[Thorfast]

 

BWML (C&RT by another name) have clearly spelt out the definition of a 'Leisure Mooring' and the requirement to have one.

 

You will not be allowed to apply for (or be granted) leisure mooring unless you submit a copy of a Council tax bill for your 'primary residence'. The bill must be in your name and be the address which you use for all your C&RT / BWML correspondence.

 

Here are the 'rules' :

 

Leisure Mooring

This product is for the boating enthusiast and customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation. It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period. BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina.

 

 

Basically you can liveaboard if :

You leave the Marina for 1 night every 28 days & pay council tax somewhere else.

 

I have been asked to produce our council tax twice in the last 13 months.

 

It would not surprise me if C&RT introduced the same requirements.

 

BWML residential moorings are :

 

Full Residential

Only available at marinas were BWML have gained residential planning approval, council tax is payable at either a composite or individual rate (please contact the Marina Manager for more information regarding council tax). Minimum contract 12 months, customers requiring longer security should discuss this with their Local Marina Management Team who will advise of the Berthing Lease requirements

 

At least this is clear. You know exactly where you stand.

You may not like it or agree with it, but it is unambiguous. (No doubt several people will now post picking holes in it !!)

I wish the CC (licence with no home mooring) was as clear.......there would be a lot less argy-bargy on this forum and all the other canal users fb pages etc. then!

[14skipper]

Nothing to worry about,unless you have been using a leisure mooring as a residential one.And I am sure that as the C&Rt point out to moorers that you can not live on a leisure mooring nobody would be doing that would they ?

And then start moaning when the muck hits the fan.

 

14skipper

[Odana]

Seems clear on leisure moorings, but the OP has a full residential mooring yet was sent T&C which seemed to say he wasn't allowed to have this as his main residence. As someone on a fully planning-permissioned residential mooring (whose mooring licence now says long-term despite my protests) this is a concern. I am uncomfortable if my mooring rights are being eroded....