Walsh 2LW starter motor

[Wrinkley]

Good afternoon, does anyone know the model/type that Walsh use on their rebuilds? I know that I can phone them in the week but.........

 

It's a 12volt job if that makes difference.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Athy]

Ford Transit.

[Wrinkley]

Thanks for the speedy reply. Just looking at images thrown up by the Google search shows different types. Mine has three bolt holes facing forward so will need to have a look. Thanks again.

[Athy]

Wrinkley, I know this only because our Walsh's 2LW, when new and still tight, blew a starter motor on a cold day. The chap who came to attend to it told me that it would be easy to replace as it was a Ford Transit type - whether made by Ford or by one of their sub-contractors I don't know.

Has your engine blown your starter motor too?

[Wrinkley]

No, the starter motor works fine, some times! When the engine is cold it usually engages first time and starts. This was even when the engine was new (2009 rebuild) But was a bit hit and miss when the engine was warm. I know I should have contacted Walsh about this but I didn't. I have checked all the wiring that I originally installed and all is fine. The only way that I can describe the fault is is seems as if the starter motor pinion bounces of the ring gear and the motor turns but not the engine. Could it be a weak solenoid? As time has gone on the miss has been more usual than not. Not a big problem and one that did not bother me as I generally start the engine do my two or three hours and stop the engine. Until this year, well 2015 when we went down south which included the length of the Thames and came across Thames locks and the need to stop the engine. Most embarrassing and needs to be sorted.

 

Now it the time to fix the problem probably by taking the Starter to a refurb shop.

 

Graham

[mark99]

Dunno if this helps? Solenoid looks like a Boshe 130302?

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by mark99

[LEO]

Wrinkley,

 

My 2002? Walsh's rebuild has the same problem - sometimes - a gentle word in it's ear seems to help.......

 

L.

[Wrinkley]

Mark99, thanks for the pic. Mine is similar as in the fitting to the engine is three bolt. The Solenoid torx screws are only accessible after the motor has been removed.The black parts on yours are that funny patchy 'cadmium' finish common on Japanese motorcycles from the eighties.

Also there are no part numbers on the Solenoid.

 

LEO, Ha Ha, tried that but not always reliable method for me. Especially when the Thames locky throws you a rope to pull you out!

Edited January 31, 2016 by Wrinkley

[arbutus]

I had the same problem with my 2LW, a Walsh’s rebuild.

 

Although I’ve now sold the boat.

 

I assumed that it was because a fully charged starter battery was spinning the starter motor too fast.

 

The starter motor seemed to behave itself when the starter battery was a bit discharged.

I know the battery was discharged because I had a 24v to 12v converter to charge the starter battery.

The converter blew a fuse, which went undetected for some time. During this period, the engagement of the starter seemed to get better and better.

 

With a fully charged battery I found that a quick blip of the start button to just flick the starter motor followed by a prolonged push of the button seemed to do the trick (Most times).

 

Could it be that with a cold engine the starter turns more slowly, while with a hot engine the starter motor and its Bendix drive works a lot quicker and has problems engaging with the ring gear because of its speed?

 

My starter had that funny patchy “Cadmium” finish

 

This is all supposition as I never took the starter motor off the 2LW to check how the engagement mechanism actually worked.

 

When I visited the Walsh’s factory I do remember that they mentioned that the starter motor is from a Ford Transit.

[Athy]

I see that you've also got a more common Walsh's problem: the grey paint flaking off. Mechanically, the engine itself has never once let me down, but I had to buy a tin of Gardner paint from Redshaw's as the casing was developing too many "bald" patches.

[fretman]

Hi there, mine is a 3lw, and same thing,, have taken 1/16, or about 60 tho off the end of the starter motor, the end that goes up against the bell housing,, works a treat now and no, problems,, but advise you carry a spare. yes is a Transit starter motor

 

Terry

Edited January 31, 2016 by fretman

[Wrinkley]

Hi Athy

Yes the paint has chipped off mine as well, but this problem needs to be sorted before I get the brush out.

 

Hi Arbutus

That's an interesting thought. Goes along with slightly discharged battery overnight (engine cold) starts fine. Engine warm, starter misbehaves. Only fly in the ointment is why does this not happen on Transits. But worth thinking about.

 

Hi Terry

Thank you for your input.

On one off the many times I removed the starter motor I noticed it has a cleaner ring that could be machining done on the end that sits inside the bell housing probably 1/16, I did not measure it (yet) but I did check the clearance between the pinion and the ring gear and that was 5.5mm. Found some info that suggested 6mm is ideal. Can't find link that now. Tried spacing it out with washers 0.75mm thick, no improvement so reverted back.

[fretman]

yes , just machined it down level 1/16,, to a flat surface,, works great now,, and did my spare one as well, just in case. on my lathe had to remove solenoid as my lathe just 3 1/2 swing but ok.

 

If you are near can do it for you, just bring it along, but I don't know where you are. me between Bromsgrove and Droitwich, near junction 5 , m5

[Wrinkley]

Hi Terry

 

Which model starter motor did you buy? It seems as though there are a number of different ones, some 2.3kw and some 2.7kw. I think it would be wise to obtain a replacement and bribe my brother in law to machine the motor. Thank you for the kind offer of helping me out but I will try brother in law a far less miles. Do you know what clearance pinion to ring gear you have? How did to come to the conclusion that you method was the cure? Not to question your cure but very interested after thinking about this for a number of years.

 

Graham

[fretman]

I see it as being 1/16 nearer the starter ring, so makes contact easier. seems to work just great

 

 

take 1/16 off on the face that fits up to the bell housing,, but only up to the lip, , which fits inside the recess for the starter motor, this just makes the lip 1/16 deeper, you may or may not need more off,, mine seemed to be ok, at 1/16, but I would not take more than 1/8 off at max anyway.

Edited January 31, 2016 by fretman

[Split Pin]

On the original axial type of starter the end of the pinion should be 1/8" (3mm) from the ring gear this allows the pre-engage to get the gears into mesh before the main contact closes otherwise it just spins up against the ring gear.

 

Sounds like the same problem is happening with the flanged motor fitted by Walshes, Machining the front flange as Terry has done should sort the problem and will probably be needed on any replacement as well.

 

I doubt that taking the starter to a repairer will give you a long term solution, they will assume that the starter is fitted on the engine correctly,which appears not to be the case,

probably replace the pinion which will no doubt have slightly beveled teeth, it will work okay for a bit then wear again and start to give you the same problem again.

 

If you can work out at what travel distance from rest that the main contacts close as the pinion engages then you will have a better idea as to how far away it should be as a minimum.

 

Obviously need to be less than the measured travel when the contacts close.

 

Steve

Edited January 31, 2016 by Split Pin

[jenevers]

But why not use this version, which appears to be the original type?

eBay item number

261530991059

 

 

(10 minutes later)

Think I know the answer now.

One's £275 the other's £50!

 

So would the Transit version be OK for a 4LW? Must be worth getting one as a spare.

Edited February 1, 2016 by jenevers

[Athy]

Redshaw's stock, or have stocked, what they say is a correct starter motor for an LW, although I don't think it's actually made by Gardner. They showed me one, it's much bigger than the Transit type of s/m, and at that time (2 years ago) it was about £200.

[PeterG]

That sounds like the CAV starter then which could well be very similar to the OE.

[WotEver]

That sounds like the CAV starter then which could well be very similar to the OE.

It is. And the same guys who refurb them also do Webber and Ebber rebuilds: http://www.startermotorsalternators.com/m/services.php

 

Tony

[martyn 1]

That sounds like the CAV starter then which could well be very similar to the OE.

The original equipment for Gardner LW's depending on the setup of the individual engines was either Bosch or CAV made BS5 (12v for the smaller 2 and 3LWs), SL5 (24v only) or U6 (24v mostly but some 12v) models. The Bosch one have different model names but essential the same.

 

Its worth bearing in mind that even the smallest of these starters is 3Kw, if memory serves, so the transit type starter is probable OK on a 2, a bit pushing it on a 3 and probably a bad idea on a 4,5,6.

[Split Pin]

But why not use this version, which appears to be the original type?

eBay item number

261530991059

 

 

(10 minutes later)

Think I know the answer now.

One's £275 the other's £50!

 

So would the Transit version be OK for a 4LW? Must be worth getting one as a spare.

The ebay one a BS5 is the type fitted to most of the LW range up until production ceased in the 1974. its a 5" dia cradle mount

The transit type was used on the 2LW,s that were built in the1990's and on many of the South Africa engines most I of which were I believe supplied as hand start so didn't have a motor fitted, and on many the cradle was damaged beyond economical repair,

If you look at Mark99's picture you can see that the crankcase casting has been cut back out of the way and the bell housing drilled to take a flanged motor.

The BS5 works out at about 5kW input power,

 

Steve

[Wrinkley]

Ok folks, here's an update. I bought a new starter motor for a 1996 Transit via ebay listed as 'TO CLEAR STARTER MOTOR - LRS00976' for £48.13 including carriage. The company is premie-factors (183131) and it arrived next day. Found the fault with the old motor, the pinion clutch is worn out. This was not apparent on the previous occasions that the motor was removed, but was this time! Explains why the problem has become more of a nuisance this past year. I have stripped the old motor down and removed the offending item and sourced a replacement for £19.90 LRS976 TYPE FORD TRANSIT LDV VAN STARTER MOTOR PINION DRIVE BENDIX CLUTCH 139341 from 'm.u.r.e.' (26654). Probably going to get my brother-in law to machine the face down 1/16 to hopefully reduce the chance of the problem recurring. The pinion does make good contact with the ring gear with approx half of the tooth face having a 'shine' to it.

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Graham

[LEO]

Pleased it's being resolved -- back in the dark 'ages' (late 60's) I had a Triumph, I recall removing the starter motor and the bendix looked a bit 'dry' I applied plenty of oil and grease before re-fitting. Big mistake as soon as it tried to engage it dis-engaged making a noise like the Gardner does when this problem occurs.

 

Removed motor and lubricant, it worked well after that.

 

A picture showing which part to skim would be helpful.

 

Leo.

[Sir Nibble]

I thought all along that this sounded like a slipping drive but kept quiet when I heard of skimming the flange face curing it. Based upon the clutch proving to be the fault after all and considering the entirely normal wear pattern you describe, I wouldn't modify it at all. The Lucas/Marelli M127 starter used on the transit has a plastic outer to the roller clutch and they break up with annoying regularity and this might be exacerbated by cranking a big twin instead of a four. The Bosch version of the same unit is far more robust and long lived.