fuel tax declaration

[johnnie1uk]

If I was to go to fuel up and was asked if I wanted to make a declaration and I said no, and was charged non propulsion price. am I expected to make an annual declaration?

[valrene9600]

No.

Just fill up declare what you feel is right and forget about it.

Now stand by for the doom and gloom brigade who will tell you the tax man will chase you along the towpath.

[john6767]

Unless you wanted 100% propulsion I would have thought that you would always make a deceleration.

[Alan de Enfield]

No - its not an annual declaration, you are 'supposed' to declare the split between heating an propulsion every time you fill up.

 

An 'acceptable' declaration is 60/40, but some may declare very different figures knowing their own usage.

 

Edit to re-order the letters in certain words.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Martin Megson]

I have a feeling that if you don't make a declaration then they may charge at the "standard" 60/40 split.

[mrsmelly]

No.

Just fill up declare what you feel is right and forget about it.

Now stand by for the doom and gloom brigade who will tell you the tax man will chase you along the towpath.

 

Yes I agree. The tax man has far better things to do pretty similar to the law that says if you dont have RCD for your new boat you cant sell it for 5 years, how many people have done time for that one!!

 

Tim

[Chewbacka]

If I was to go to fuel up and was asked if I wanted to make a declaration and I said no, and was charged non propulsion price. am I expected to make an annual declaration?

If you refuse to make a declaration and refuse to state if you are private or commercial the supplier should refuse to sell you fuel.

If you claim to be commercial (so all fuel duty free) but it is obvious you are not the supplier will supply, but must keep details in his records.

If like everybody you do make a declaration it is entirely up to you to fix the percentage for propulsion and the supplier will supply accordingly.

The supplier should note your name & address in his records but is not required to ask for proof etc.

 

If you want the full information see

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying

[johnnie1uk]

mmmmm, basically I said no, no address taken, just the boat name, charged domestic price. that was that!

[dogless]

I have been to a number of suppliers who have tried to persuade me to declare 100% domestic in winter because "that's what everyone does".

I have never been persuaded by the argument and tend to declare 10% or 20% in winter, subject to our rates of travel, and 20% to 30% in season.

I have always considered the 60/40 split to be based on the rates of travel of hire boats. I know some like to do 8 or 10 hours a day cruising but we tend to bumble about with 3 hours being a long day

Rog

[b0atman]

Diesel at garage pump is now less than motive so domestic 100% and fill drums at garage I believe this raises the octane? rating in your tank and gives better fuel consumption ? What do the panel think?

[Paul C]

Diesel at garage pump is now less than motive so domestic 100% and fill drums at garage I believe this raises the octane? rating in your tank and gives better fuel consumption ? What do the panel think?

 

Red diesel and DERV are the same except for the red dye. Octane rating relates to petrol, not diesel, so can't say anything relating to diesel engines but in petrol cars, the octane rating does not effect the fuel economy (other than a modern car which can compensate for lower octane petrol, but can make best use of high octane fuel, will generate more power on high octane fuel if full throttle were used, etc - basically completely unrelated to boats). The important physical property for comparison would be the energy per unit fuel, ie energy density, which does not vary significantly across grades of the same type of fuel).

[alan_fincher]

I believe this raises the octane? rating in your tank and gives better fuel consumption ? What do the panel think?

 

You need to do more research!

[b0atman]

Surely there are grades of diesel as heating oil varies so much in price from what I have heard and is sold to boaters ! my research was to ask the question or is this not a forum for questions and answers ?

when I had an eberspacher I had lots of misfires lock outs these stopped when I added white diesel to the fuel tank at the start of winter about 25% .Coincidence maybe.

Edited January 16, 2016 by b0atman

[ChimneyChain]

I can't see HMRC taking a blind but of notice whether someone declares truthfully or untruthfully whether or not there £50 worth of diesel is for propulsion or for heating.

 

Darren

[OldGoat]

Diesel at garage pump is now less than motive so domestic 100% and fill drums at garage I believe this raises the octane? rating in your tank and gives better fuel consumption ? What do the panel think?

In the style of some posts / threads on here -

Rubbish.

More politely - octane rating as for petrol and is a measure of 'anti knock'. Compression ignition engines (= diesel) do knock; that's how they work, so the measure is meaningless.

Methinks your assumption / information might possibly be based on the erroneous belief that filling station diesel and what we buy on the canal system is different. The only difference are the dyes and marker chemicals added at the local distribution point.

 

The 60/40 split is an arbitrary figure arrived at after 'consultations', so that - for once - 'our' government could follow the wording of the EU Directive.

 

It's up to you to claim more or less duty on propulsion based on reasonable calculations.

 

If you refuse to make a declaration it will only cause hassle for the retailer when the Revenue man inspects his records. I reckon the retailer may well refuse to supply you again. Nobody wants / needs pointless hassle.

[alan_fincher]

when I had an eberspacher I had lots of misfires lock outs these stopped when I added white diesel to the fuel tank at the start of winter about 25% .Coincidence maybe.

How many years ago was this?

 

It used to be the case that road diesel (DERV or "White"), was ultra low sulphur (ULS),,but the dyed gas ,oil ("Red") was not.

 

This meant diesel heaters often ran better on the former.

 

This ceased to be the case a few years back when all diesel or gas oil sold had to be ULS, so now effectively the only difference is the red dye, and any other markers added to the fuel.

[Tony Brooks]

Diesel at garage pump is now less than motive so domestic 100% and fill drums at garage I believe this raises the octane? rating in your tank and gives better fuel consumption ? What do the panel think?

 

Despite what Old Goat asserts there is ample evidence that road diesel (derv) is not the same as the gas oil we buy in all cases. He is correct that the basic fuel is the same with similar cetane rating, calorific value and lubricity but it will all be low sulphur. Road diesel WILL contain a proportion of bio-fuel, gas oil may or may not depending upon the refinery that produced it. When low sulphur fuel was demanded by the EU my information is that all UK gas oil was just dyed red Derv but certain sectors using it hit even worse bug problems than we did so eventually some suppliers made bio-free gas oil available. If you ask a canal side supplier if his fuel is bio-free or not there is no way you can easily test the truth of his answer.

 

Before low sulphur fuel some gas oils were of a lower cetane rating but I got data sheets form one supplier that showed the composition of both were so similar I doubt a boater would know the difference.

 

As bio seems more easily attacked by bug I am not sure I would be buying Derv apart form the early summer when I had high usage and there was still time to almost dilute the bio away before lay-up time. How much do you save? How much does dealing with a bug incident cost?

[alan_fincher]

If you ask a canal side supplier if his fuel is bio-free or not there is no way you can easily test the truth of his answer.

 

Some fuel boat suppliers have told be that they cannot answer wehether what they are selling contains biofuel, because they cannot extract an answer from their suppliers that they can be confident about.

[Tisinca]

We filled up on the K&A last Summer .The marina we used told us that they had a visit from the Revenue the week before. They were a bit put out as all the revenue man did was to flick through the marinas records and say that's fine.

He then explained that all they had to do was to check that people selling fuel were keeping records and there was no way they had the staff or time to chase after boaters who hadn't declared tax. At the end of the day you decide how much tax you pay and I certainly don't worry about it. Needless to say we pay very little.

[ditchcrawler]

How many years ago was this?

 

It used to be the case that road diesel (DERV or "White"), was ultra low sulphur (ULS),,but the dyed gas ,oil ("Red") was not.

 

This meant diesel heaters often ran better on the former.

 

This ceased to be the case a few years back when all diesel or gas oil sold had to be ULS, so now effectively the only difference is the red dye, and any other markers added to the fuel.

We have a Dickinson stove and the burner soon use to collect a great clinker in it. Not had that problem since diesel went Low Sulphur

[OldGoat]

 

Despite what Old Goat asserts there is ample evidence that road diesel (derv) is not the same as the gas oil we buy in all cases. He is correct that the basic fuel is the same with similar cetane rating, calorific value and lubricity but it will all be low sulphur. Road diesel WILL contain a proportion of bio-fuel, gas oil may or may not depending upon the refinery that produced it. When low sulphur fuel was demanded by the EU my information is that all UK gas oil was just dyed red Derv but certain sectors using it hit even worse bug problems than we did so eventually some suppliers made bio-free gas oil available. If you ask a canal side supplier if his fuel is bio-free or not there is no way you can easily test the truth of his answer.

 

Before low sulphur fuel some gas oils were of a lower cetane rating but I got data sheets form one supplier that showed the composition of both were so similar I doubt a boater would know the difference.

 

As bio seems more easily attacked by bug I am not sure I would be buying Derv apart form the early summer when I had high usage and there was still time to almost dilute the bio away before lay-up time. How much do you save? How much does dealing with a bug incident cost?

 

Not being wishing to be argumentative on contentious but -

If your fuel supplies come from the same distribution resources as local filling stations then MGO is (more than) likely to be marked DERV simply because of distribution costs. It's just not practical for the fuel distribution pipeline network or for local depots connected to that network either to ship or store small quantities of specialist fuels - certainly if the product is to be sold at reasonable prices.

There may be special requirements in a locality - for example in mainly agricultural areas dealers may stock non bio fuel for that market. I simply do not know as I left the oil industry some years ago.

Most canalside sellers have small tankage - quite often of domestic tank size because of environmental regulations so it would not be economical for them to buy or sell gas oil.

When the new regulations came into force a large marina group proudly proclaimed that because of their purchasing arrangements, they would only be selling 'traditional' gas oil, so their customers with large oil burning boats should have no worries. When push-came-to-shove they discovered that the supplier just couldn't -umm- supply what was promised. No announcement was made and AFAIK there were no complaints from customers about gunged up tanks!

 

 

 

Some fuel boat suppliers have told be that they cannot answer wehether what they are selling contains biofuel, because they cannot extract an answer from their suppliers that they can be confident about.

 

That follows from the above!

[john6767]

mmmmm, basically I said no, no address taken, just the boat name, charged domestic price. that was that!

Interesting, is it common for people to refuse to make a declaration? Why would you do that.

[nicknorman]

Just for clarity, octane rating is for petrol and higher numbers reflect increased resistance to detonation/knocking/pinking.

 

Cetane rating relates to diesel and is a measure of the ease and speed of compression-ignition, higher numbers means it is quicker to burn, this gives less of the characteristic diesel knocking sound.

 

So they are pretty much completely the opposite thing.

Edited January 16, 2016 by nicknorman

[valrene9600]

We filled up on the K&A last Summer .The marina we used told us that they had a visit from the Revenue the week before. They were a bit put out as all the revenue man did was to flick through the marinas records and say that's fine.

He then explained that all they had to do was to check that people selling fuel were keeping records and there was no way they had the staff or time to chase after boaters who hadn't declared tax. At the end of the day you decide how much tax you pay and I certainly don't worry about it. Needless to say we pay very little.

Even at 0% propulsion declaration there is tax to pay. Why would you want to pay more to keep the EU happy.

[Alan de Enfield]

Interesting, is it common for people to refuse to make a declaration? Why would you do that.

 

There seems to be an awful lot of hypocrisy here ( not you John) with people deciding on whether to 'pay their dues' based on the likelihood of being 'caught' - there was great uproar when Pillings lock Marina didn't pay their debts, but if 'you' can get way without paying tax on your fuel its an achievement.

 

Funny how 'we' cherry-pick' the rules that suit.