I've Just Received an Invitation To Vote !!

[alan_fincher]

Having searched my email this is the only communication I've had from them. Were the original emails inviting us to vote from the ERS too, or from CRT?

 

I believe all emails will have come from "Electoral Reform Services"

 

I have now had 8 emails in total, relating to voting, (plus quite a lot more before relating to standing as a candidate or supporting other candidates).

 

That is 4 for the Private Boating elections, and 4 for the Volunteer elections, with each arriving in pairs.

 

Mine were received

 

13th November

1st December (Reminder)

9th December (Voting extender)

15th December (Final reminder)

 

Despite Allan Richards suggestions that it is a vote per boat licence this time, I personally have received only single invitations (and code) to vote in the Boater elections, not one per eligible boat. I have yet to hear definitive evidence one way or the other that anybody has received two codes, and hence two votes because they have two boats licensed in the same name, (unless you now have, Mike?).

[RLWP]

 

I think, but am not absolutely certain, that CRT planned to use (for at least the Boater elections) only the email account held against your records for boat licensing purposes, and assume that to be a valid one, if they have one.

 

That all sort of assumes they have a correct email address, that is has been passed correctly to ERS and that my spam filter hasn't removed it as junk mail

 

I have just checked the likely email accounts - nothing

[alan_fincher]

 

That all sort of assumes they have a correct email address, that is has been passed correctly to ERS and that my spam filter hasn't removed it as junk mail

 

I have just checked the likely email accounts - nothing

 

Do you get licensing reminders by email?

 

This kind of thing, (from customer.srvices@canalrivertrust.org.uk)...

 

Dear Sir/Madam

The licence for xxxxxxxxxxx expires on the xx xxxxx 2015 and your renewal notice is below.

There are three ways to renew your licence:

1. If you've already registered on the new licensing system after receiving our email a couple of weeks ago you can renew online at: https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/LongTermLicence/Renewal/xxxxx
2. If you haven't already registered on our website please visit https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/Account/RegisterExisting to set up your account. You can do this using your customer number xxxxxxxx
3. By telephone with customer service on 0303 040 4040.

Please check that all the information on the renewal notice is correct. Please could you:

1. Make any changes to correct the details shown about you, the licence you require, or the boat.
2. Ensure that your boat safety certificate is valid. If its due to expire during the period of this licence please allow enough time to arrange your survey. You can do this up to two months in advance and keep the same renewal date.
3. Update your insurance details. We do not need a copy of the certificate but you may be asked to send a copy during our routine checks.
4. If your mooring site has changed please supply us with the new address or location.

The amount that you will need to pay for your next licence depends on when we receive your correctly completed application (and any enclosures). Key dates and amounts are as follows:

Date we receive your application

Amount due

Up to the start date of your new licence

£xxx.xx (Early payment rate)*

Up until one month after the start date of your new licence

£xxx.xx (Full fee)

One month or more after the start date of your new licence

£xxxx.xx (Full fee plus late payment charge)**

*If you pay by direct debit please note that your licence will no longer automatically renew and you need to follow one of the three options above to renew your licence.

*The early payment rate only applies if the correctly completed application (and any enclosures) is received by us on or before the licence start date. It does not apply if you pay by Direct Debit instalments.

** For applications received more than one month after the start date, an additional late payment charge of £150 is payable.

NB. A £7.50 charge will apply to all payments made by credit cards, but not debit cards.

In making your application you are confirming that you have read, understood and accept the licence terms and conditions. These are published online at www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licensing or you can request a copy from customer services.

Happy boating,

Boat licensing Team

PO Box 162 Leeds LS9 1AX

E customer.services@canalrivertrust.org.uk

T 0303 040 4040 (Mon to Fri, 8am to 6pm)

www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licensing

 

[raymondh]

I received all the voting eamils as Alan F so have no issues with propper contact

 

As to what details C&RT hold I check and update as required on my account page within the C&RT website ie insurance, postal address, tel number etc

 

Ray

[Lady M]

Last time it was essentially one vote per customer number and this may not have changed. As a two boat family with two different customer numbers, we received two votes in each election. However, both times it was necessary to chase up the second one. Well I thought it was until the duplicate arrived.

 

I'm not going to use my duplicate vote because I'd hate to have the election called null and void and have to go through all this again.

 

CRT's lack of understanding of their customer base is of some concern to me, especially as it does not appear to have improved since the first Council election.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I believe all emails will have come from "Electoral Reform Services"

I have now had 8 emails in total, relating to voting, (plus quite a lot more before relating to standing as a candidate or supporting other candidates).

That is 4 for the Private Boating elections, and 4 for the Volunteer elections, with each arriving in pairs.

 

Mine were received

13th November

1st December (Reminder)

9th December (Voting extender)

15th December (Final reminder)

 

Despite Allan Richards suggestions that it is a vote per boat licence this time, I personally have received only single invitations (and code) to vote in the Boater elections, not one per eligible boat. I have yet to hear definitive evidence one way or the other that anybody has received two codes, and hence two votes because they have two boats licensed in the same name, (unless you now have, Mike?).

It was certainly the response given to a two boat owner about a month ago. CaRT also told another person that you could vote in more than one constituency if you were entitled to do so.

 

However, that has been contradicted within the last few days with CaRT now saying that a person entitled to vote has just one vote irrespective of 'stake' and that a hierarchy of constituencies exists.

 

To give two examples, if you are entitled to vote in the business boating constituency and the private boating constituency then you only have one vote and that will be in business boating.

 

If you have two private craft then you only have one vote.

 

I rather get the impression that CaRT are changing election rules on the fly in response to claims that other mutuals give just one vote irrespective of stake. A moments thought regarding the first example shows how ludicrous this change is as it is the business that has a vote rather than an individual.

[alan_fincher]

When you say "CRT are saying", where are they saying it?

 

Is this on a public web-site, or in private responses to individual enquirers? A specific person, such as Roger Hanbury?

 

Are ERS somehow going to void the second vote of individuals who have already managed to cast more than one vote?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Can anybody who owns multiple boats (each licensed in the same primary name), please confirm that they have been given the opportunity to cast multiple votes in just the Private Boater elections, please?

Although I have seen some such claims, I have not so far heard them confirmed beyond resalable doubt.

[Lady M]

Well I hope that is not the case as they also have my email address attached to a boating business.

 

I think that they should treat each category as a completely separate election, granting some individuals more than one vote.

 

I know some people who have, for example, a boatyard premises rented from CRT and also own a private boat who have only been allowed to vote in the business category despite the fact that they clearly have two different sets of interests.

 

This time round there is yet another grey area - how does one qualify to vote in the volunteer category? Simply turning up and helping doesn't appear to be sufficient.

Our two boats are in different names on separate customer numbers.

[alan_fincher]

This time round there is yet another grey area - how does one qualify to vote in the volunteer category? Simply turning up and helping doesn't appear to be sufficient.

 

Does this help? From this document

 

4.3 Volunteers

To be eligible to stand for election, sponsor an election candidate, and vote in the election in this constituency, you must have registered as a volunteer with the Trust.

In addition you must have volunteered directly for the Trust in the 12 months immediately preceding 14 October 2015. This volunteering time must have been recorded on the Trust’s database and must be in addition to any time volunteered as a member of an Advisory Group, Partnership or the Trust Council.

To stand for election your nomination must be supported by 5 sponsors who each meet these criteria.

 

To serve on Council you must, throughout your term of office, continue to be registered as a volunteer with the Trust and continue to volunteer regularly, such hours to be spent directly on work for the Trust and in addition to any time volunteered as a member of an Advisory Group, Partnership or the Trust Council.

Employees of the Trust are not eligible to stand for election, sponsor candidates, or vote in this constituency.

 

What worries me is that this document says it was revised on 8th December, which is close to the date the elections should have closed, so it does seem to suggest that changes or clarifications were being made to the rules themselves long after many people will have already cast their vote. I've no idea what the changes may have been but it seems less than transparent!

[DHutch]

Personally, while I am somewhat unsure what the trust does, and was only able to go on fairly limited information, I think it's important to vote and to do you best to select appropriate choices.

 

If sensible people don't take part, the minority become the majority vote.

 

No vote is not a protest, its abstaining from the process totally.

 

 

Daniel

[Allan(nb Albert)]

When you say "CRT are saying", where are they saying it?

 

Is this on a public web-site, or in private responses to individual enquirers? A specific person, such as Roger Hanbury?

 

Are ERS somehow going to void the second vote of individuals who have already managed to cast more than one vote?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Can anybody who owns multiple boats (each licensed in the same primary name), please confirm that they have been given the opportunity to cast multiple votes in just the Private Boater elections, please?

Although I have seen some such claims, I have not so far heard them confirmed beyond resalable doubt.

CaRT are saying it in the 'Make a comment' section of the ERS website -

 

Link to website (scroll down to 'Make a comment' and click on 'see more').

 

However, I also quote the relevant parts below -

 

 

CRTcommunications Mod • 2 days ago

Hi Sue. In short, the eligibility criteria are based on established practice in mutual organisations where the vote is irrespective of the size of stake held in an organisation. These principles are simple, easily understood and can be managed and administered at reasonable cost. They can also be applied consistently and without complex change to any additional future elections set up for Volunteers and Friends. We have also taken advice from ERS who have confirmed that these principles are sound and in line with their experience in other organisations drawn from the 2000 elections they run each year.

This issue was reviewed in the public consultation in 2013/14 and after discussion by the Council it was decided that we should not change the principle of one vote per customer, irrespective of the number of boats owned. Below is an extract from the consultation: Review of Elections to Council 6 Revised 17 January 2014

2.8 Election principles.

 

For simplicity, the rules for the first elections were determined on the basis of established practice for mutual organisations: thus,

• Voters were permitted to vote in one election only. We worked to a hierarchy where the owner of a boating business who also had a private boat licence could vote only in the Boating Business Election; a member of staff who also had a private boat could only vote in the staff election
• One vote was allocated per customer – thus owners of more than one boat, and boats in shared ownership (including family members and couples) were allocated one vote. Likewise, joint business owners had one vote
• Votes were allocated on the basis of a stake held in the Canal & River Trust irrespective of the size of that stake. So one vote was allocated to the owner of a boat irrespective of the type or number of boats owned; one vote was allocated to a boating business whether large or small

 

Sue Hudson • 2 days ago

WHY CAN YOU ONLY GET ONE VOTE WITH TWO BOATS YOU PAY TWO LICENCE FEES AND TWO MOORING FEES

 

 

However, this appears to contradict what was stated a month earlier in the same place.

 

 

CRTcommunications Mod • a month ago

Hi Mike. You may vote in all elections where you meet the eligibility criteria (further details in the Useful Documents on this web page). ERS will have sent you separate login codes for each of the elections you’re eligible for. Most people will only be eligible to vote in one or maybe two elections for Private Boating, Boating Business, Volunteer and Employees. So, in short, it depends what you're eligible for.

Mike Newman • a month ago

Perhaps I have missed this (in which case apologies), but I suggest you make the voting procedure clearer; I assumed that I would one vote for the 4 private boaters, another vote for the 3 business boaters, another for the 1 volunteer, etc. However it seems this isn't the case because I only had one shot at voting!

 

 

 

 

... and what a 'two boat' owner was told.

 

With regard to the 'two boat' owner that was a private response given to an individual. As he is a member of this forum, I have drawn his attention to this thread in case he wishes to comment or post the exchange.

 

With regard to the question 'Are ERS somehow going to void the second vote of individuals who have already managed to cast more than one vote?', I have no idea!

 

I guess that individuals that have managed to vote twice would have no way of knowing that a vote had been voided.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Allan(nb Albert)

[roggie]

It all seems a bit of a mess, I guess they want to make sure someone can't stand under 2 different categories. I used to be a 'Towpath Ranger' so should have been able to stand as a 'volunteer' (I guess) plus in the private boater..what if I was a friend as well. Perhaps that is what happened to the friend who was put through to the vote then wasn't, perhaps they were nominated by someone who had a interest in another category.

 

As for Mikes point about this lot might not be any better than the last..... Well that might be true and, if elected, you might never hear of me again but I can say that won't happen ( (I think I can speak for Stella as well), please don't tar us with previous brushes. I do struggle to wonder how some of the other candidates intend to represent private boaters when we haven't heard of them when they are looking for votes (I exclude Ruth from this who is active on various Facebook forums). I would hope that one of the first things new council members should ask for is a full report of the election process and promise that the report would be published to make sure the next election gets it right. I, personally, would like a regular article in the various canal journals (paid and free) so those who represent others can feed back to their constituents. When I say 'I' I would hope that is a we.

Just over 28 hours left to vote.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

As for Mikes point about this lot might not be any better than the last..... can feed back to their constituents. When I say 'I' I would hope that is a we.

Just over 28 hours left to vote.

 

Apart from the 'mess' of the elections, my reason for being so ambivalent to the whole 'thing' is not particularly that the 'last lot' did nothing - more that the 'last lot were not in a position to do anything'.

 

My understanding of the 'job-role' is it is NOT what is needed - we need people 'on the ground' advising C&RT on what needs doing, what the feelings and perceptions are.

These appointments have no means of contact with C&RT and are totally without the 'authority' or the ability to advise or influence anything.

 

The council are there to act as a 'sounding board for the Trustees'.

 

So what can the Council actually achieve in the day to day management ( or improvements) in the Inland Waterways ?

[MtB]

 

I believe all emails will have come from "Electoral Reform Services"

 

I have now had 8 emails in total, relating to voting, (plus quite a lot more before relating to standing as a candidate or supporting other candidates).

 

That is 4 for the Private Boating elections, and 4 for the Volunteer elections, with each arriving in pairs.

 

Mine were received

 

13th November

1st December (Reminder)

9th December (Voting extender)

15th December (Final reminder)

 

Despite Allan Richards suggestions that it is a vote per boat licence this time, I personally have received only single invitations (and code) to vote in the Boater elections, not one per eligible boat. I have yet to hear definitive evidence one way or the other that anybody has received two codes, and hence two votes because they have two boats licensed in the same name, (unless you now have, Mike?).

 

 

Thanks Alan.

 

I've searched my email including the spam bin and can confirm only one email from ERS, it being the final reminder. So i KNOW they have my correct email address.

 

(Setting aside the fact I have two boats and two licenses, so might have expected all comms to have been doubled up.)

[kingswood]

still waiting for mine to arrive

[Starcoaster]

The main purpose of my vote by a long shot involved placing my tinmen to keep Vaughn Welsh at the bottom, which is essentially why I voted at all.

Once I had done this, I made my decisions on the rest of the pack.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Starcoaster

[tillergirl]

CRT have an email address for us but we got all our info snail mail

[roggie]

Alan,

 

I may well be proved wrong but I think most of the work of council reps will be outside the 2 council meetings a year. Anyone taking their role seriously should be able to contact CRT staff directly via some form of communication path - similar to local councillors who address questions/issues outside the normal method - well in my experience (as a council officer) this works well and responses are monitored to ensure timescales are met. Most council officers know that they should prioritise councillor correspondence otherwise trouble... Councillors also have training in how the organisation works and who does what, of course a national organisation is a tad more tricky to do this but I would hope for some type of training in who does what and why. If that isn't how it works then it should - shame we can't ask the outgoing reps for their thoughts.

 

I'm ever the optimist (glass is always half full) which is one reason why I decided to stand in the first place (perhaps a bit of can't do worse). As I might have said previously, somewhere online, I am disappointed that most of the candidates have decided not to raise their heads above the waterline (Stella and I on these forums, Ruth on various Facebook pages and I've seen a couple of post from Bandsman on the London Boaters Facebook page). I can only assume that they think the150 words in their initial statement are enough, unfortunately they may be right.

 

Kingswood - I think you will have to ring ERS for the codes.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Alan,

 

I may well be proved wrong but I think most of the work of council reps will be outside the 2 council meetings a year. Anyone taking their role seriously should be able to contact CRT staff directly via some form of communication path - similar to local councillors who address questions/issues outside the normal method - well in my experience (as a council officer) this works well and responses are monitored to ensure timescales are met. Most council officers know that they should prioritise councillor correspondence otherwise trouble... Councillors also have training in how the organisation works and who does what, of course a national organisation is a tad more tricky to do this but I would hope for some type of training in who does what and why. If that isn't how it works then it should - shame we can't ask the outgoing reps for their thoughts.

 

I'm ever the optimist (glass is always half full) which is one reason why I decided to stand in the first place (perhaps a bit of can't do worse). As I might have said previously, somewhere online, I am disappointed that most of the candidates have decided not to raise their heads above the waterline (Stella and I on these forums, Ruth on various Facebook pages and I've seen a couple of post from Bandsman on the London Boaters Facebook page). I can only assume that they think the150 words in their initial statement are enough, unfortunately they may be right.

 

Kingswood - I think you will have to ring ERS for the codes.

I would hope that the four boating reps will set about reforming governance of CaRT.

 

If we take it as a given that Council provides a 'check and balance' on the trustees, having the powers of appointment and dismissal, there are three issues that prevent it being effective -

• The council's chairmanship - how is it that the chair of trustees is also the chair of council? In practice this means that council meeting agenda and format are not dictated by council.
• Appointments Committee - how is it that trustees sit on the councils appointments committee (and chair it) when this committee recommends appointments of trustees?
• How is it that Cart's Trustees appoint one third of Council that then appoints them? I refer, of course, to chairs of waterways partnerships.

I would hope our representatives would tackle these issues rather than individual boater concerns (which can be addressed via national boating organisations or by the individuals themselves).

 

[alan_fincher]

The main purpose of my vote by a long shot involved placing my tinmen to keep Vaughn Welsh at the bottom, which is essentially why I voted at all.

Once I had done this, I made my decisions on the rest of the pack.

 

With apologies to those that have put their names forward, but even if the four I have placed top are elected, (which, I'm sure, they will not all be), I don't think there are actually 4 good candidates amongst the 8.

 

With a couple of possible exceptions, I'm afraid I don't think the incoming lot have much likelihood of making much greater impact than the outgoing lot.

 

I feel slightly uncomfortable stating this, when at least 8 people have put their names forward, and this time I have not, but I think it is fairly obvious that most boaters have lost just about all faith that these positions will ever make much difference to anything.

 

There also seem to be so many problems with the electoral process itself, that I have anyway severe doubts about the validity of any result they produce.

[Alan de Enfield]

A 'snotty' for echoing my feelings

[Starcoaster]

Agreed with Alan. My votes have basically scaled from "lukewarm feelings but no major objections" as my most flattering vote, via "been around less than five years and/or nothing worth saying" right down to "danger to self and others, should not be allowed onto canals without adult supervision" at the bottom end.

[Tuscan]

Don't quite see the point in voting for people you don't believe are worth voting for. Having said that its a fair point to question whether on the basis of the previous few years there's any point in voting at all.

[roggie]

I wonder where I came... No don't say. Alan(s) thinking about it you are most likely correct in your thoughts about those who are elected not being able to change anything and therefore not managing to do what you would like them to do. Even if the ideal candidate (for you) was on the list one person out of 40 is going to find it very difficult if not impossible, I can see why some thinker the structure is to prevent change rather than take the organisation forwards. We have absolutely no idea what the previous reps did so can the next batch be worse? If boaters in the main are really concerned about the makeup of the trustees, council, execs then I've not heard this in conversations out on the cut. Of course this doesn't mean it's not important but most people look at a lack of facilities, maintenance (of assets and the canal itself), dredging, enforcement being the main things to get right. I think you are right in that it's the bigger issues that should be addressed and that could mean the other issues fall into place.

 

Not sure if I am digging a bigger hole here but I doubt anyone reading this has yet to vote...only 88 minutes left unless the website is running on USA time instead of GMT.

 

Whatever happens it would be good for the forum to come to some sort of agreement on how to liaise with the reps and what priorities they should look to take to the first couple of meetings.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Don't quite see the point in voting for people you don't believe are worth voting for. Having said that its a fair point to question whether on the basis of the previous few years there's any point in voting at all.

I would agree. Whilst the election will return four new private boater council members it will also be a vote in the confidence that boaters have in CaRT and its governance structure.