Diesel for the Beginner?

[GreyLady]

So me and my dad won't be getting a Narrow boat until next year but I am confused about the different types if diesel I keep reading about.

 

Are we ok buying from marina service points?

 

What all this fame about?

 

Once I/we get on the water me and dad have already said working boats for diesel/coal and gas where possible.

 

And not too sure yet but thinking of a landrover twin water/diesel separator in line.

[patty-ann]

I must admit that diesel bug worries me...know its summit to do with water in tank and it grows because of it.

I read to buy diesel at places with high turn over..how do I know where?

Also hear to keep tank full...does that mean constant top up over winter?

Is it ok to buy diesel in cans?..where from? ..but the green ones awfully heavy..but if I buy in cans guess can keep topped up

Then they say use a pump thingy with tube to syphon crud out of bottom of tank..trying to word that one out.

the whole topic enough to confuse.

[Taslim]

Others with direct experience will be along when they wake up bringing hard facts and expert advice but nut shell answers:-

 

Marina outlets. Go for ones that have a high turnonver of fuel.

 

Fuel boats. Must be a good bet 'cause their reputation and therefore living depends on it.

 

FAME. I can't remember what the acronim is exactly but it is a % of Bio Diesel added to 'proper' diesel. Avoid.

 

Filter and aglomerator. Fit if you don't have one already

 

Lazy buggers. Some of us went to bed and were still up before you but had more important things to do than play with a computer.

[Martin Megson]

Hi,

Ideally the boat should have two filters in the fuel line. The first is a normal fuel filter and the second, usually mounted on the engine above the lift pump is an agglomerator which separates water from diesel ( Sounds like the land rover separator you mentioned). This one has a drain tap to remove any water. There are also fuel additives which help - personally I use "Marine 16". Hope this helps

[Phil Ambrose]

OK to top up from cans, best advice is to keep your tank full during the winter because condensation forms on the exposed part of the tank above the fuel level. This condensation will run down into the fuel and settle at the bottom, this is where the diesel bug thrives, it lives in the water and feeds on the fuel and grows to form a biomass bits of which are what blocks fuel lines and fuel filters. So cutting down on the amount of condensation makes sense. Adding a fuel additive does make a difference, I have used Startron for years, there are others. Fuel boats are not universal, depends where you are, someone will be along shortly to advise.

Phil

[Tony Brooks]

The problem with FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) - bio-diesel - is that it is more hygroscopic that normal diesel so it tends to carry rather more water into the tank and it is more readily consumed by microbes, moulds and yeasts - diesel bug. This means that given time the bugs tend to multiply and form films and slimes that block pipes, filters and even in bad cases the injection system. This means that where you have a slow turnover of fuel or where it is stored for long periods fuel containing fame is more prone to bug problems that ordinary diesel.

 

Bug needs water and fuel to grow so anything you can do to keep water out of your tank is all to the good. This includes draining the tank bottom at least once a year (via the drain if fitted or by a tube through the filler), ensuring fillers are water tight, checking the tank breather is orientated so it is hard for rain to get in, keeping it as full as is reasonable over the winter and fitting a water trap of some sort between tank and lift pump. I have two traps, a CAV sedimetor and an agglomerator in that line but other maker ere available, your Landrover thing could be one of these.

 

I always try to buy diesel for places that have a high or very high turnover but NOT ordinary filling stations. Road diesel has to have FAME added. Some/many oil depots can and do supply red diesel without fame so always ask (but you could be lied to). I tend to buy from hire fleets where possible because if they got bug it would cost them far more than it would me.

 

AS an insurance I use an additive that I put into my tank before refuelling, there are many brands and not all work in the same way so a bit of reserach here and deciding which will be best in your circumstances pays off.

[Robbo]

OK to top up from cans, best advice is to keep your tank full during the winter because condensation forms on the exposed part of the tank above the fuel level. This condensation will run down into the fuel and settle at the bottom, this is where the diesel bug thrives, it lives in the water and feeds on the fuel and grows to form a biomass bits of which are what blocks fuel lines and fuel filters. So cutting down on the amount of condensation makes sense. Adding a fuel additive does make a difference, I have used Startron for years, there are others. Fuel boats are not universal, depends where you are, someone will be along shortly to advise.

Phil

Although i think it's better to have good turn over of diesel than having a tank of diesel that's years old. So if you have a large tank i would use other methods to reduce the water in the tank.

[blackrose]

Hi,

Ideally the boat should have two filters in the fuel line. The first is a normal fuel filter and the second, usually mounted on the engine above the lift pump is an agglomerator which separates water from diesel ( Sounds like the land rover separator you mentioned). This one has a drain tap to remove any water. There are also fuel additives which help - personally I use "Marine 16". Hope this helps

Isn't it the other way around? The first filter (in order of fuel flow direction) is the water separator/ agglomerator and the second is the ordinary fuel filter?

 

My agglomerator is mounted on the uxter plate of the boat, while the fuel filter is mounted on the engine, opposite to how you describe it.

 

I use Marine 16 too. In the PBO tests it came out as one of the best.

Edited November 14, 2015 by blackrose

[GreyLady]

Everyone's advice is super appreciated I feel a bit rude not replying individually.

 

I am bit overwhelmed with how to reply being honest, we will be in well known marinas but it's just so suspicious of what kind of diesel their mix is and Tony thanks for the info about adding some anti bug to the diesel.

 

I am still half asleep, you lot are brilliant.

Edited November 14, 2015 by GreyLady

[Flyboy]

Isn't it the other way around? The first filter (in order of fuel flow direction) is the water separator/ agglomerator and the second is the ordinary fuel filter?

 

My agglomerator is mounted on the uxter plate of the boat, while the fuel filter is mounted on the engine, opposite to how you describe it.

 

I use Marine 16 too. In the PBO tests it came out as one of the best.

Correct.

[cuthound]

I inherited a large bottle of Fuelset when we bought DQ and have been using that.

 

Does anyone know how this performs at preventing diesel bug?

 

Also is it OK to add Marine 16 to fuel already treated with Fuelset?

[nb Innisfree]

I inherited a large bottle of Fuelset when we bought DQ and have been using that.

 

Does anyone know how this performs at preventing diesel bug?

 

Also is it OK to add Marine 16 to fuel already treated with Fuelset?

Marine 16 kills diesel bug, Fuelset mixes any water in the diesel with the diesel so that is burnt off in the engine. Diesel can't be kept totally free of water, it's inevitable. We always added Fuelset when refuelling and when I occasionally drew out diesel from the bottom of the tank there was never any detectable water present. I have also used Marine 16 but only because I was being a bit obsessive, I think Fuelset prevented the conditions forming that promote diesel bug. Edited November 14, 2015 by nb Innisfree

[Tony Brooks]

I inherited a large bottle of Fuelset when we bought DQ and have been using that.

 

Does anyone know how this performs at preventing diesel bug?

 

Also is it OK to add Marine 16 to fuel already treated with Fuelset?

 

To the best of my knowledge

 

Fuelset works by (choose your own word) dissolving, emulsifying any water in the tank so it is safely passed through the fuel system and is expelled with the exhaust gasses. If you get rid of the water bug can not breed.

 

Marine 16 (small bottle) is a biocide.

 

Marine 16 Diesel Fuel Complete is (as I understand it) a cocktail of active ingredient but the ones we are concerned with in this thread are a biocide plus a demulsifier so water settles to the bottom of the tank to allow draining off (if you have a drain cock). To my mind this suggest the two may cancel each other out but I doubt it would do any harm.

 

Since RCR cam across a moussey, waxy slime that coated filters and wa satributed, by a fuel test lab, to additives AND verbal reports I had from Eberspacher about Fuelset possibly causing problems in the tank I ahve altered me fuel dosing regeim, simply a san insurance, it may not do much good.

 

While using Fuels set I found very little water in the bottom of my tank and no mousse. After one season of using Marine 16 DFC I found lost of small droplets across the bottom of the tank. I now use Fuelset during the summer until early September, then nothing until the last fill of the season and at that point I add Marine 16 DFC. The idea is that the Fuelset will get rid of the water and the Marine 16 will kill any bugs in the tank. When I pump from the bottom of my tank in the spring I will report what effect this seems to have had.

 

This is what I am trying, it is not a recommendation. I used Fuelset for maybe 12 years with no problems. There are other products available with similar properties s read the container.

[cuthound]

Thanks Innisfree and Tony, useful information.

 

I will continue with the fuelset and await the results of Tony's spring draining.

[Scholar Gypsy]

Not a lot to add to earlier comments, but to emphasise:

• do make sure your filler is watertight (good O-ring, suitable silicon grease)
• if you have to fill the tank when it is raining, then use an umbrella and dry everything first so no water gets into the tank
• take samples from the bottom of the fuel tank. If there is a lot of crud and other stuff then you may need to get your tank cleaned out and the fuel polished (in essence pump all the fuel out, get it filtered properly and put it back).

My fuel tank got a really good shake this year, which produced the first bit of water in the water trap for five years. I reckon about 1 part in 50,000, which was not a cause for concern...

[Tony Brooks]

Not a lot to add to earlier comments, but to emphasise:

• do make sure your filler is watertight (good O-ring, suitable silicon grease.
• SNIPPED.

 

Or when you are having a new boat built or work on the tank carried out INSIST that a female threaded pipe stub is fitted with a male cap to close it. Not as atheistically pleasing but water can not run uphill through the threads.

 

Also if your upper rudder bearing is held down with bolts or not welded in studs take steps to seal the threads when you work on it.

[Chewbacka]

Not sure what your landrover separator looks like, but the BSS doesn't like clear bowls on filters unless explicitly approved.

 

As to FAME free diesel, both the fuel suppliers near to me only supply red diesel with from memory 7% bio. With some biocide after each fill, I have so far not had a problem. They both sell a lot of fuel as they are fuel suppliers to farms etc, boats is just a small extra to them.

 

If you are turning over your fuel in your tank every say 3 months, and it was good when it went into the tank and you don't let water in I would be surprised if you had a problem. The biggest risk is a half full tank on a boat that is unused for a few months over the winter, followed by a few short weekend trips. So the fuel gets very old.

 

Best way to prevent diesel bug is to keep using the boat and using the fuel up and refilling. More fun than sitting at home.

[GreyLady]

Not sure what your landrover separator looks like, but the BSS doesn't like clear bowls on filters unless explicitly approved.

 

As to FAME free diesel, both the fuel suppliers near to me only supply red diesel with from memory 7% bio. With some biocide after each fill, I have so far not had a problem. They both sell a lot of fuel as they are fuel suppliers to farms etc, boats is just a small extra to them.

 

If you are turning over your fuel in your tank every say 3 months, and it was good when it went into the tank and you don't let water in I would be surprised if you had a problem. The biggest risk is a half full tank on a boat that is unused for a few months over the winter, followed by a few short weekend trips. So the fuel gets very old.

 

Best way to prevent diesel bug is to keep using the boat and using the fuel up and refilling. More fun than sitting at home.

Thanks to everyone and Tony who pm me, I am proper rusty with engines a fuel these days that why I keep asking you guys.

 

The landy filter is like this one but I think it's been said that boats come pretty well online filtered.

 

I don't plan to sit in a marina so hopefully that will stop the tank condensation and waxy diesel.

 

I am about as green as they come with boating but I will keep you lot on tap for help if that's OK your all a great help.

 

Thanks for everyone's help

Edited November 14, 2015 by GreyLady

[mango]

 

Or when you are having a new boat built or work on the tank carried out INSIST that a female threaded pipe stub is fitted with a male cap to close it. Not as atheistically pleasing but water can not run uphill through the threads.

 

Also if your upper rudder bearing is held down with bolts or not welded in studs take steps to seal the threads when you work on it.

Also make sure that rainwater cannot enter via the tank vent, which might require some sort of shield.

 

When having a boat built ensure that there is a means of draining water and debris from the lowest point. Ideally there should be a sump, but that's not easy on a narrowboat. Welding in a plate with a slight slope to ensure that water collects at the corner with the drain point would be sensible, but I have not seen this done.

 

I have seen an example of water getting in through a deck filler. Once it was covered, no further water collected in the tank.

[patty-ann]

Thanks as well to everyone whose replied I think I know now whats needs to be done.....I have not been out nearly enough on my boat thats for sure and gonna try now that just maybe free time ahead to get out over winter months..

[Martin Megson]

Isn't it the other way around? The first filter (in order of fuel flow direction) is the water separator/ agglomerator and the second is the ordinary fuel filter?

 

My agglomerator is mounted on the uxter plate of the boat, while the fuel filter is mounted on the engine, opposite to how you describe it.

 

I use Marine 16 too. In the PBO tests it came out as one of the best.

 

Not on my engine. But that doesn't mean mine is correct.

[nb Innisfree]

Don't on any account add Fuelset if you suspect water is all ready present in the tank, a friend of mine did just that not realising that a considerable amount of water was already in the tank. It rendered a fresh tankful of diesel useless as there was no way of separating diesel and water. There's a limit to how much water in diesel an engine can tolerate.

[GreyLady]

Thanks as well to everyone whose replied I think I know now whats needs to be done.....I have not been out nearly enough on my boat thats for sure and gonna try now that just maybe free time ahead to get out over winter months..

Go for it patty it might be lovely and quite.

Edited November 14, 2015 by GreyLady

[Tony Brooks]

 

The landy filter is like this one but I think it's been said that boats come pretty well online filtered.

 

 

Those should fail the BSS because of the plastic drain taps. They also have small sediment bowls and are agglomerators, not sedimentors. I would advise one of each with deeper bowls. Sedimentors remove the larger chunks of dirt and water with out using a filter so are less likely to clog. The agglomerator removes the last 20% of water that will be in finely divided droplets.

 

Image & supplier of CAV sedimentor http://www.asap-supplies.com/marine/cav-type-filters-and-elements/cav-type-fuel-separator-302005

 

The agglomerator looks the same but has the filter element between head and bowl.

Don't on any account add Fuelset if you suspect water is all ready present in the tank, a friend of mine did just that not realising that a considerable amount of water was already in the tank. It rendered a fresh tankful of diesel useless as there was no way of separating diesel and water. There's a limit to how much water in diesel an engine can tolerate.

 

I rather suspect that the stated dosing instructions were not followed. I can not see a few CC of Fuelset emulsifying a lot of water. I do suspect that the problem RCR & Eberspacher found might have had a similar root cause.

[14skipper]

It rendered a fresh tankful of diesel useless as there was no way of separating diesel and water.

Sorry but don,nt see how this could have been a "fresh tankful of diesel" then.