Jump to content

Minimum distance? The enforcement officers have it in black and white.


Doodlebug

Featured Posts

Hi all,

 

Just spoke to an enforcement volunteer.

 

We are currently on a 106 mile journey.

 

We are currently in what I call 'lower berkhampstead' and have been here for a week. I need to get to berkhampstead station in two weeks time so in a week I was planning to move to 'upper berkhampstead' for a little bit - which is about a 10-15 minute walk away. Then continue further up the canal in much larger jumps.

 

Ive moored in those two places for two weeks each before with no problems but the enforcement man has a map and says that I can not moor there.

 

Whats all that about? I have no copy of the map and in my opinion if I am doing a 106 mile journey (212 by the time we get back!) and moving every 14 days then I think moving a slightly smaller distance one week is not a big deal.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Doodlebug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't see a problem with what you are doing personally. Moving every 14 days and on such a journey ought to be fine even if for a while you linger in a smaller area.

 

Yeah but they don't know how long the journey is yet! I don't want emails telling me to move my boat after the have brought in this 6 month licence thing.

 

I think they need to be publishing this map if anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing constructive to add except that one can see why "I'm doing a 106 mile journey" might not be relevant if, say, you were intending to take 10 years to do it, or were going to do 105 miles in one week, and spend the other 51 weeks covering a mile.

 

I'm not saying you're doing that of course, and (bearing in mind no experience in these matters) I woul be inclined to just do it and hang the consequences provided it's a 1-off.

Edited by nicknorman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest if the EO's have a map giving them this info, then said map should be available to all boaters it will have an effect on.

 

That aside from all the arguments that will arise as to whether or not it is actually "lawful" for CRT to try to enforce such a document.frusty.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you a boat with no home mooring?

Whats wrong with using Tring Station then your movements would keep them happy.

I guess that its the new 1km between stopping points that they are using

Edited by Loddon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good points.

 

We have no home mooring.

 

We plan to finish the trip by November 1st when we will get a winter mooring.

 

It may not be lawful but that wont stop them emailing and threatening us.

 

I had a strongly worded email from them when we moored somewhere for two weeks (place B), traveled south (place A) then returned north (place C) and moored up at place B for an hour to get some shopping.

 

Seemed alittle unfair to me.

 

Any tips for proving where you were and for how long - because a photo is very subjective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How long is left to run on your licence? If I were you I'd just get on with doing what you want.

 

By the time they get round to looking at your data (if at all) they will see that you've done another 100 miles since your stop in Berko and I hardly think they'll deem it crime of the century.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its interesting the bit about "you can't moor there then" I wonder what the exact wording was. And if there was a map could you whip the phone out and get a picture of it.

I suppose if Lower Berko is by the old Bridgwater boats and upper

berko is between Gas works locks then it would be close to the 1km distance thing which might be what the oroficer was getting at ?

 

Personally I'd not worry about it and just do it you won't be the first !

 

Has anyone done a foi request to ask how many people have had their cruising licenses reissued with a 6 or 3 month rather than 12 ?

 

Interesting times

Edited by magnetman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its interesting the bit about "you can't moor there then" I wonder what the exact wording was. And if there was a map could you whip the phone out and get a picture of it.

I suppose if Lower Berko is by the old Bridgwater boats and upper

berko is between Gas works locks then it would be close to the 1km distance thing which might be what the oroficer was getting at ?

 

Personally I'd not worry about it and just do it you won't be the first !

 

Has anyone done a foi request to ask how many people have had their cruising licenses reissued with a 6 or 3 month rather than 12 ?

 

Interesting times

 

Lower is by the Rising sun pub and upper is past waitrose, past the park and the next lock up.

 

FOI request would be interesting.

 

The map did not make that much sense to me - lots of colours and codes and he only flashed it in my direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yeah but they don't know how long the journey is yet! I don't want emails telling me to move my boat after the have brought in this 6 month licence thing.

 

I think they need to be publishing this map if anything.

I guess they don't but assuming you will not be lingering in a smaller area for an extended time I still don't think it is a problem.

 

I agree if they have a map they are using to judge you they should publish it and we can all be clear how they are arriving at decisions about movement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear CRT,

 

Under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, I respectfully request a copy of a map held by an enforcement officer at xxx location on yyy date. I understand said map is being used to assist said officer in the execution of his duties.

 

Etc

 

Send that if you are interested enough, it can be emailed.

Edited by Geordie.narrowboat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgive me but.........is it possible that the map was nothing more that a normal OS map on which the vol. enforcement officer was able to measure the distance between two points.......just a thought

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you (or anyone else) does an FOI request then do it through https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/canal_river_trustthat way it's available to everyone and searchable.

 

That's a good point. I am not always keen on FOI requests as I sometimes think that the FOI process is over used in order to be a nuisance rather than get access to something useful by some but if they have a map they are using to judge peoples movement we ought to be able to see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If an enforcement officer is allowed to use a little discretion, that's not such a bad thing. Making arbitrary decisions is not such a good thing. I fail to see how fair the system could be if those it effects have little idea of the choices they can take in enabling them to stay within good practice. This is a weakness in the system and CRT's ability to defend their regulations is undermined because of this lack of information the boaters have to hand.

Edited by Higgs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The document referred to in this thread says they'll pick up on people who've been in the same km for more than 14 days. If your two places are less than a km apart, then that could be the problem. If the enforcement officer is telling you in advance that it could be a problem, to give you time to do something about it. isn't that a good thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How long is left to run on your licence? If I were you I'd just get on with doing what you want.

 

By the time they get round to looking at your data (if at all) they will see that you've done another 100 miles since your stop in Berko and I hardly think they'll deem it crime of the century.

 

 

I think there is a potential problem there. Last year between late May and mid September we travelled from Napton to Liverpool, to Leeds and back to Calcutt via the Trent and Leicester line. I asked for my sightings and got just three. One for which was supposedly in Ventnor Farm Marina where the boat has never been. There was just one sighting away from the Calcutt in all that time. If the OP does as is suggested there seems no guaranty that the OP will be sighted at all in his 106 mile journey and even if he is the place might be incorrect.

 

I have no answer for the OP apart from collect what proof he can of his locations but wish CaRT would sort this out. Maybe he should contact the local Manager and explain his situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

We are currently in what I call 'lower berkhampstead' and have been here for a week. I need to get to berkhampstead station in two weeks time so in a week I was planning to move to 'upper berkhampstead' for a little bit - which is about a 10-15 minute walk away.

 

 

It comes down to what a "place" is. Does everyone else refer to "Lower Berkhampstead" and "Upper Berkhampstead"? Are there printed maps with the both of these on? Or is there really just one place, called "Berkhampstead"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The document referred to in this thread says they'll pick up on people who've been in the same km for more than 14 days. If your two places are less than a km apart, then that could be the problem. If the enforcement officer is telling you in advance that it could be a problem, to give you time to do something about it. isn't that a good thing?

 

I'd say no, it's certainly not a good thing. Why should he have to change his plans (which will cause no inconvenience of disruption to anyone else at all) just to satisfy some jobs worth with a map they might have coloured in themselves? The fact that not changing his plan might mean he ends up getting a snotty email from CRT and possibly refused a 12 month licence renewal next time is the problem here, not his plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The enforcement volunteers are a new one on me, I met my first one yesterday. He wore a CRT logo'd shirt and formal ID badge stating his name and "Volunteer Moorings Warden."

 

He was checking licences and stay times along the Braunston stretch. He had a list of boats previously sighted there, presumably with the sighting date, and he checked my licence number and asked how much longer I would be staying. I asked to see what he had on his sheet regarding my boat, but he wouldn't show me.

 

He was very pleasant and friendly, but I must admit I didn't know that volunteers were now performing these sorts of tasks. He did suggest that I move up from my current spot to a 14 day mooring, and I pointed out that I was already on a 14 day mooring and was within the signs that say so, which he agreed with. I am a bit worried that, had I not seen him, I may have been registered as being on a 48 hour mooring and ergo, having already overstayed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The map was digital and had different lines to indicate mooring lengths.

 

Berkhampstead is one town but I would consider the approach and exit as two places. There is a mooring stretch in between.

 

Rather than a FOI request for berkhampstead I think ask for the entire system. One map is no good!

 

Problem is although I consider them two places CRT are the ones who have more power to say so.

 

The enforcement process is flawed in so many ways. Unless we all have gps trackers there will be mistakes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Picking up on Betties mention of Braunston, that is checked nearly every day by the volunteers.

 

They are that good, that I got a phone call while shopping in Daventry to ask if my boat was OK, now after the initial panic that something had happened, I enquired as to why they were phoning.

 

I had, according to them, been moored in the same place for five weeks.

 

On informing them that I had not, the conversation went back and forth, I then admitted that the boat was on exactly the same mooring that it was five weeks before but in that time it had been to at least three other places the nearest, two hours travelling away.

 

Oh! and I also mentioned that it was pointing in the opposite direction.

 

As we were back on the boat in the afternoon we invited them to tea and they could look at the log (diary) the wife keeps.

 

They said they would if able to leave the office, they never turned up.

 

 

Do 'enforcement officers' exist, volunteer or full time, or is it just a 'posh' title for 'boat checkers', surely the actual collating and enforcement is done by HQ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.