Canoe in tunnel

[Timleech]

So a boat does not have to use a tunnel light in a tunnel of under 440 yards, (BW bye-laws), but if it is a canoe they require it?

 

Seems reasonable to me.

 

The canoeist needs it to be seen.

 

Tim

[NBDensie]

The right of canoeists to travel through some tunnels and the obvious danger particularly with crooked tunnels is a known issue - our local IWA raised it a few months ago with CRT who are reviewing the matter. I believe neither CRT staff nor the canoeist's organisation were aware of the situation and I understand the latter expressed no wish to preserve this right. I also think that changes to the signs to warn boaters that canoes could be present is a short term measure until a decision is made.

[Emerald Fox]

The right of canoeists to travel through some tunnels and the obvious danger particularly with crooked tunnels is a known issue - our local IWA raised it a few months ago with CRT who are reviewing the matter. I believe neither CRT staff nor the canoeist's organisation were aware of the situation and I understand the latter expressed no wish to preserve this right. I also think that changes to the signs to warn boaters that canoes could be present is a short term measure until a decision is made.

 

There's nothing wrong at all if canoeists or dinghys or swimmers or rowing boats wish to go through tunnels, in fact I think it's good - PROVIDING there is supervision and someone to stop 17-tonne steel coffins surging in, either from the other end or behind them! What is this absolute madness in today's Elf & Safety Society?

 

Above classes of unpowered and unlit craft take note: apologies beforehand, but don't blame me for splattering your innards all over the tunnel ceiling when I come through, as all I am looking at is the roof and walls and spending all my concentration on trying to avoid hitting the walls. I CANNOT see anything in front of the boat. Shouts and screams are obliterated by the sound of the engine. If I see blood and brains dripping from the walls and bits of fibreglass kayaks I ain't stopping until I get to the end of the tunnel - and even then I can't phone to report as Britain is a Third World Country with never a decent cellphone signal in the countryside.

 

As I know a bit about the Finnish Stone Industry I can arrange (at your expense) a pretty gravestone. I would much prefer not to have that bother, so definitely prevent any powered boat from entering any tunnel if you want to play around in one. It's like kids playing 'Dare' on a railway line, isn't it?

 

I hope CRT are held 100% responsible and sue-able for any deaths if they are actively encouraging such stupidness.

[NBDensie]

 

There's nothing wrong at all if canoeists or dinghys or swimmers or rowing boats wish to go through tunnels, in fact I think it's good - PROVIDING there is supervision and someone to stop 17-tonne steel coffins surging in, either from the other end or behind them! What is this absolute madness in today's Elf & Safety Society?

 

Above classes of unpowered and unlit craft take note: apologies beforehand, but don't blame me for splattering your innards all over the tunnel ceiling when I come through, as all I am looking at is the roof and walls and spending all my concentration on trying to avoid hitting the walls. I CANNOT see anything in front of the boat. Shouts and screams are obliterated by the sound of the engine. If I see blood and brains dripping from the walls and bits of fibreglass kayaks I ain't stopping until I get to the end of the tunnel - and even then I can't phone to report as Britain is a Third World Country with never a decent cellphone signal in the countryside.

 

As I know a bit about the Finnish Stone Industry I can arrange (at your expense) a pretty gravestone. I would much prefer not to have that bother, so definitely prevent any powered boat from entering any tunnel if you want to play around in one. It's like kids playing 'Dare' on a railway line, isn't it?

 

I hope CRT are held 100% responsible and sue-able for any deaths if they are actively encouraging such stupidness.

 

 

 

 

What are you on about???

 

At present canoeists etc do have the right to enter certain tunnels whenever they want and as far as I know always have had that right. This is not well known to the general boating community and there are no warnings. Boaters are unlikely to be able to see a canoeist in a tunnel. Dont you think some changes should be made? Or are you proposing that boaters should only be allowed in tunnels once a CRT official has declared the tunnel empty?

[Emerald Fox]

What are you on about???

 

At present canoeists etc do have the right to enter certain tunnels whenever they want and as far as I know always have had that right. This is not well known to the general boating community and there are no warnings. Boaters are unlikely to be able to see a canoeist in a tunnel. Dont you think some changes should be made? Or are you proposing that boaters should only be allowed in tunnels once a CRT official has declared the tunnel empty?

 

1. Yes, they have the right to get horribly mangled.

 

2. Why are there no warnings? CRT is responsible for this lack, in my opinion.

 

3. Yes, I agree, boaters cannot see canoeists - hence SPLAT!

 

4. Yes, I think changes should be made.

 

5. Yes, ONLY boaters in tunnels which have NO unpowered & unlit craft in them.

 

I'm puzzled why you think people have the right to be insanely stupid? Do you think suicidal sillyness is quite OK? 17-tonne boats + 100 kilogramme fibreglass canoes do not party-party in tunnels. Someone will end up crying.

[NBDensie]

 

1. Yes, they have the right to get horribly mangled.

 

2. Why are there no warnings? CRT is responsible for this lack, in my opinion.

 

3. Yes, I agree, boaters cannot see canoeists - hence SPLAT!

 

4. Yes, I think changes should be made.

 

5. Yes, ONLY boaters in tunnels which have NO unpowered & unlit craft in them.

 

I'm puzzled why you think people have the right to be insanely stupid? Do you think suicidal sillyness is quite OK? 17-tonne boats + 100 kilogramme fibreglass canoes do not party-party in tunnels. Someone will end up crying.

 

I agree with you - taking an unpowered boat into a tunnel is insanely stupid. That is why the issue was raised. As far as I know no-one is saying that joint use is possible. The point is that until recently it seems no-one was aware that the problem existed and had existed for a long time. Did you know that unpowered boats were allowed in medium length tunnels? I certainly didnt.

[wobbley]

This thread sounds like a load of arrogant lorry drivers bleating on about old ladies in Micra's !

 

The canoes have as much right to use the canals and tunnels as the rest of us.

 

It's not in itself a stupid thing to do, provided commonsense buoyancy aids and headtorches are used. What is stupid, in my view, is powering 17 tons of narrowboat through a tunnel when you are unable to see what is in front of you. Then having the affront to suggest it would be 'their' fault if someone got splattered on the walls. Just think how stupid it would sound in a court if there ever was a serious accident.

[MoominPapa]

 

 

At present canoeists etc do have the right to enter certain tunnels whenever they want and as far as I know always have had that right.

As I said in my original post, there are two different signs at the Birmingham end of Brandwood tunnel. The newer one has the conditions for canoes to enter (check tunnel clear, bright light) the older one says "No unpowered craft". That's fairly strong circumstancial evidence that canoes have not always been permitted.

 

MP.

 

Edited for speeling.

Edited May 30, 2015 by MoominPapa

[Leo No2]

This is the southern portal sign for Blisworth (albeit a long tunnel) installed fairly recently.

 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Leo No2

[andy3196]

As I said in my original post, there are two different signs at the Birmingham end of Brandwood tunnel. The newer one has the conditions for canoes to enter (check tunnel clear, bright light) the older one says "No unpowered craft". That's fairly string circumstancial evidence that canoes have not always been permitted. MP.

Yes, it is one of the dozen that have been added to this list of tunnels open to navigation by unpowered craft, sometime after November 1997.

 

I was incorrect earlier when I stated that there were 17 open at that time, I missed off the third group which were not individually listed and had no conditions attached to their use. Two of these are now included on the current list, so now have the standard conditions of use.

[cuthound]

Blimey, what with this thread and the one about the Flinty Cyclometer aqueduct, is thought I'd logged onto Canoe World Discussion Forum by mistake

[churchward]

This link https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1424.pdf

Shows the tunnels you can canoe through. Interestingly it doesn't mention lights.

 

When a serious incident occurs, they'll tighten the rules I suppose.

I suppose so but who of us would wish to be steering the boat that runs down the first canoeist?

[Detling]

This thread sounds like a load of arrogant lorry drivers bleating on about old ladies in Micra's !

 

The canoes have as much right to use the canals and tunnels as the rest of us.

 

It's not in itself a stupid thing to do, provided commonsense buoyancy aids and headtorches are used. What is stupid, in my view, is powering 17 tons of narrowboat through a tunnel when you are unable to see what is in front of you. Then having the affront to suggest it would be 'their' fault if someone got splattered on the walls. Just think how stupid it would sound in a court if there ever was a serious accident.

The problem is that a canal boat, like any ship with the steering position anywhere but the front has a blind spot directly in front of it and this extends for a considerable distance (almost a mile for a supertanker in ballast), your tunnel light does not penetrate that far into the dark unless it is so bright that it will blind anyone coming the other way. The best idea would be a flashing light like cyclists wear on a pole about 2 yards/metres above the water then we could see them easily.

 

It is a similar problem to lorries and cyclists, lorries have a blind spot on the left of the cab as the nearside cab door is in the way and unless they have downward mirrors (which all new lorries have by law) it is impossible for the driver to see a cyclist on his left by the cab, when at a junction or traffic lights. I have seen a cyclist ride up the inside of a lorry indicating left at a traffic lights, and the cyclist wondered why, the lorry turned left and crushed his bike! he was lucky and able to leap clear. It was of course the lorry drivers fault he should have got out and looked round his vehicle before moving off when the traffic lights changed.

[churchward]

This thread sounds like a load of arrogant lorry drivers bleating on about old ladies in Micra's !

 

The canoes have as much right to use the canals and tunnels as the rest of us.

 

It's not in itself a stupid thing to do, provided commonsense buoyancy aids and headtorches are used. What is stupid, in my view, is powering 17 tons of narrowboat through a tunnel when you are unable to see what is in front of you. Then having the affront to suggest it would be 'their' fault if someone got splattered on the walls. Just think how stupid it would sound in a court if there ever was a serious accident.

really? The canals were built for canoes only were they? I assume you are exaggerating to make a point. What are NBs supposed to do when they reach a tunnel turn back?

 

It will be cold comfort to the individual injured in a tunnel that a court might side with the canoeist when they are tipped into the water or crushed against the wall.

 

It is not a matter of arrogance at all but of concern that one might meet a canoe in a tunnel especially a narrow one and not see them. After all ones buoyancy aid and head torch is not much protection for an individual if hit by a narrowboat.

[Puckle]

Being both a narrow boater and a level 3 canoe coach with the BCU. (British Canoe Union) let me throw some light on some of the points raised. BCU membership entitles you to canoe on any CRT waters. additional licences are required on the Thames.and Avon and one or two other rivers. Regarding BCU members you will find 99% would wear a buoyancy because it is the terms for the Liability insurance that you are covered for in your membership.

 

Even like boaters there are canoeist and canoeist those that apply by the rules and those that do not. I have canoed through small tunnels but personally would not go through a long tunnel unless there was a tow path i.e. Netherton tunnel which I done with 30 other canoes and yes every one of us was wearing head lights. we also return through the Dudley tunnel with the escort boat. For someone to canoe out of a tunnel with no light and no buoyancy can not be class as a canoeist only a kamikaze paddler.

 

Regarding the person that said that canals are not for canoes. The canals are for everyone, I along with canoe clubs that I belonged too, have given up many a weekend to canoe along rivers and canals on litter picks. There are some serious bigots on this forum site.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Puckle

[Alan Saunders]

Of the tunnels 'open to unpowered craft' I am only familiar with the Bruce tunnel on the K&A. A narrowboat can traverse the 500yds in <6 minutes, most canoes in half or much less of that time. The exit is clearly visible from either end and I always wait if I see a boat entering from the other end. I am reasonably confident that I would spot a canoe in the this tunnel, even more so if they are carrying modern, bright LED lights. OTOH, I understand from an experienced boater/paddler that their view of the tunnel/exit is more restricted than that from a boat.

 

Were I to encounter canoe(s) in a tunnel I would stop, hold against the r/h wall with the shaft. OTOH, I do not traverse tunnels banging from one wall to the other with a chance of crushing an oncoming boat. If a fast canoe overtook me in a tunnel I would be concerned for their safety - how do they know that I will be able to 'hold my course'?

 

Alan

Edited May 30, 2015 by Alan Saunders

[churchward]

Being both a narrow boater and a level 3 canoe coach with the BCU. (British Canoe Union) let me throw some light on some of the points raised. BCU membership entitles you to canoe on any CRT waters. additional licences are required on the Thames.and Avon and one or two other rivers. Regarding BCU members you will find 99% would wear a buoyancy because it is the terms for the Liability insurance that you are covered for in your membership.

 

Even like boaters there are canoeist and canoeist those that apply by the rules and those that do not. I have canoed through small tunnels but personally would not go through a long tunnel unless there was a tow path i.e. Netherton tunnel which I done with 30 other canoes and yes every one of us was wearing head lights. we also return through the Dudley tunnel with the escort boat. For someone to canoe out of a tunnel with no light and no buoyancy can not be class as a canoeist only a kamikaze paddler.

 

Regarding the person that said that canals are not for canoes. The canals are for everyone, I along with canoe clubs that I belonged too, have given up many a weekend to canoe along rivers and canals on litter picks. There are some serious bigots on this forum site.

I haven't reread every post but no one I can see has said that canals are not for canoes we are talking about canoes in tunnels and mixing it up with heavy narrow boats in a confined dark place. But perhaps I have missed a post or you have read something into a post that is not there.

 

Canals are indeed for everyone but everybody also has to take care and be responsible it is not a safe playground where no one can come to any harm no matter what one tries to do.

[Emerald Fox]

 

Did you know that unpowered boats were allowed in medium length tunnels? I certainly didnt.

 

I had not thought of it before. I always toot before and when entering a tunnel, and maybe a few times as we go along - if someone can hear the tooting then I'm letting them know we're coming, if there's no-one to hear it then it doesn't matter, not disturbing anyone.

I read the book 'Worst Journey in the Midlands' where a man rowing from the Severn to the Thames via the southern Oxford Canal, goes through the Shortwood & Tardebigge tunnels on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal - as I remember he chickened out of doing Wast Hill Tunnel and got a tow from a narrowboat.

 

I think it's perfectly OK for rowing boats, kayaks, duck-shaped dinghies to go through tunnels - just not at the same time as huge lumps of steel that are hard to steer. I also think that all tunnels should be supervised, one person at each end - well, there's 4 million Unemployed (plus another 4 million (illegal) immigrants on their way) - it would give some people a job. But then someone is bound to say "Who will pay for that?" and I will say "The same people who pay for all the politicians' Business Class plane trips to Brussels and their bonuses".

 

On the other hand it's good to have a bit of Danger, makes life more exciting. There would be nothing in the News if we were all Elf-&-Safety conscious. Wouldn't it be boring if the Braunston Times reported: "Nothing happened in the Plough's car park today"?

Talking of Danger, I find it odd that people take their flat-bottomed narrowboats to Sea. Quite bizarre.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Emerald Fox

[Emerald Fox]

This thread sounds like a load of arrogant lorry drivers bleating on about old ladies in Micra's !

 

The canoes have as much right to use the canals and tunnels as the rest of us.

 

It's not in itself a stupid thing to do, provided commonsense buoyancy aids and headtorches are used. What is stupid, in my view, is powering 17 tons of narrowboat through a tunnel when you are unable to see what is in front of you. Then having the affront to suggest it would be 'their' fault if someone got splattered on the walls. Just think how stupid it would sound in a court if there ever was a serious accident.

 

The canals were built for freight boats, not for kayaks and blow-up-duck swimming rings.

Do canoeists, etc. have 'the right' to use CRT waters - do they have to pay for a licence? If not, why not?

So, single-handed narrowboating cannot be allowed in tunnels as the steerer can't see everything, and someone must stand at the front of the boat to keep an eye out for buoyancy aids & headtorches?

It is a bit like frogs hopping across the M6 and moaning that truck drivers should swerve round them.

The CRT tunnel sign (shown) forgets to add: 'You are strongly advised to make sure your Will is up to date if attempting to go through in an unpowered craft'.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Emerald Fox

[David Schweizer]

I have never met a canoe in a tunnel, but am fairly confident that if I did meet one in any of the tunnels in the CaRT list, I would be able to see it (assuming it was during daylight hours) They are all short tunnels, and of those that i know, the other end is clearly visible, and even a canoe would present an outline which could be observed, and appporiate action could be undertakento avoid a collision.

 

Of course in a long tunnel, where theoretically one should not meet an unescorted canoe, the sitiation is different, but even with a low powered tunnel light projected towards the tunnel roof, it should stlii be possible to see something in the water ahead. Ideally, and assuming you are not sinlge handing, someone could be placed at the front end to look out for obstructions.

 

The canals were built for freight boats, not for kayaks and blow-up-duck swimming rings.

Do canoeists, etc. have 'the right' to use CRT waters - do they have to pay for a licence? If not, why not?

So, single-handed narrowboating cannot be allowed in tunnels as the steerer can't see everything, and someone must stand at the front of the boat to keep an eye out for buoyancy aids & headtorches?

It is a bit like frogs hopping across the M6 and moaning that truck drivers should swerve round them.

The CRT tunnel sign (shown) forgets to add: 'You are strongly advised to make sure your Will is up to date if attempting to go through in an unpowered craft'.

 

Yes, they do. providing they have either payed for a licence or arw a member of the BCU (or its current equivalent) As part of my job, many years ago, I used to manage a fleet of canoes, and we had to renew the licences every year, In those days they had to be stuck onto the top of the canoe, but I believe these days the canoist is required to carry the licence with them

[Emerald Fox]

Well, so long as they are paying proportionally the same amount as we are for the use of the CRT network, that's alright then.

As I said, I think it's great than canoes/kayaks/whatever use the canals, but tunnels demand respect. Man recognises Nature - but Nature does not recognise Man.

Anyway, less from me these next few weeks - going boating Scary, eh?

A Happy Summer to everyone here!

[NickF]

Being both a narrow boater and a level 3 canoe coach with the BCU. (British Canoe Union) let me throw some light on some of the points raised. BCU membership entitles you to canoe on any CRT waters. additional licences are required on the Thames.and Avon and one or two other rivers. Regarding BCU members you will find 99% would wear a buoyancy because it is the terms for the Liability insurance that you are covered for in your membership.

 

 

The BCU website says membership does cover the Thames with no additional licence. (I hope this is right as i am planning a trip on The Thames this summer.)

 

http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/membership/waterways-licences/

 

Their list of covered waterways is

 

• All the Canal & River Trust canals and river navigations and the following Association of Inland Navigation Authorities waterways
• River Ancholme (Environment Agency)
• Basingstoke Canal (Basingstoke Canal Authority)
• Bridgewater Canal (Manchester Ship Canal Company)
• River Cam, Cambridge to Bottisham Lock (Cam Conservators)
• River Cam, below Bottisham Lock (Environment Agency)
• River Glen (Environment Agency)
• River Great Ouse below Kempston (Environment Agency)
• River Great Ouse Flood Relief Channel, between the Head sluice lock at Denver and the Tail sluice at Saddlebow (Environment Agency)
• River Lark (Environment Agency)
• River Little Ouse below Brandon Staunch (Environment Agency)
• River Medway below Tonbridge (Environment Agency)
• River Nene below Northampton (Environment Agency)
• Norfolk & Suffolk Broads and Rivers Ant, Bure, Chet, Thurne, Waveney, Wensum, Yare and associated Broads and Dykes (Broads Authority)
• River Avon (Stratford) from Alveston to Tewkesbury (Avon Navigation Trust)
• River Stour (Suffolk) below Brundon Milll, Sudbury (Environment Agency)
• River Thames - Cricklade Bridge to Teddington to include the Jubilee River and Maidenhead Waterway (Environment Agency)River Welland (Environment Agency)
• Wey & Godalming Navigations (National Trust)
• River Wissey (Environment Agency)

And waterways under restoration:

• Wilts and Berks Canal – restored sections only (Wilts and Berks Canal Trust)
• Stroudwater Navigation – restored sections only (Cotswold Canal Trust)

Or am I getting muddled between BCU and Canoe England?, I thought the latter was the new name for the former.

[Leo No2]

Just seen these two in Stoke Bruerne (they are Dutch boats) and they are heading off into Blisworth Tunnel - I would not like to be coming the other way, especially in Sculptor which is currently not loaded and quite high at the fore end, despite the fact that they seem to be quite legal - lights etc fitted. One of them has the most enormous sounding engine - goodness only knows what it is. You can kind of gauge what size they are by looking at Moon's stern end.

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Leo No2

[John V]

Just seen these two in Stoke Bruerne (they are Dutch boats) and they are heading off into Blisworth Tunnel - I would not like to be coming the other way, especially in Sculptor which is currently not loaded and quite high at the fore end, despite the fact that they seem to be quite legal - lights etc fitted. One of them has the most enormous sounding engine - goodness only knows what it is. You can kind of gauge what size they are by looking at Moon's stern end.

 

 

 

Opduwers !!! luv 'em luv 'em luv 'em Some of them have MAHOOSIVE engines semi diesels (Search for thread)

[alan_fincher]

What is stupid, in my view, is powering 17 tons of narrowboat through a tunnel when you are unable to see what is in front of you. Then having the affront to suggest it would be 'their' fault if someone got splattered on the walls. Just think how stupid it would sound in a court if there ever was a serious accident.

 

To try and give some balance, (and certainly not looking to start an argument), however observant and cautious the steerer, if the narrowboat is 72 feet long, with a cabin or cratch at the front raised well into the air, then there is actually a very considerable length ahead of the boat where it is impossible for the steerer to see the water, or anything floating in it near water level. The simple geometry of the situation makes this inevitable, and the shorter the steerer the worse the effect.

There is nothing you can do that changes this fact.

 

Also usual advice is often to have tunnel lamp pointed to the right and/or upwards to avoid blinding oncoming steerers, so directly ahead of your boat and low down is often not well illuminated, (although if the steerer can't see that bit anyway, it is kind of irrelevant!).

 

I would not guarantee that I might not hit a canoe or rowing boat in a tunnel of any length, if no attempt had been made by those in it to show any kind of forward facing light. I would hope any sensible ruling in the case of an accident placed the blame 100% at the door of the canoeist that chose not to use a decent light!