rules for "bridge hopping" with a home mooring

[Machpoint005]

 

 

Yes odd, isn't it. I imagine nobody here knows the answer to my two questions.

 

To my first question I speculate that breach of the T&Cs would be a civil matter and CRT are entitled to sue the boater for compensation.

 

To my second I think it is 'no'.

 

Mike - for the sake of clarity, which two of your four questions are you referring to?

[MtB]

 

Mike - for the sake of clarity, which two of your four questions are you referring to?

 

1, 2 and 3 are all the same question really, smartypants

 

 

MtB

(So by second, I meant 'fourth'...)

[kris88]

So, dragging the thread back on topic, what happens if a boater complies with their obligations under the BW Act 1995 but ignores the additional non-negotiable T&Cs they had to accept in order to get a licence?

 

Can their licence be revoked? And what action can the boater take should this happen? (Apart from startting to comply with the T&Cs that is!)

 

Has any boater ever had their licence revoked for, say, running their generator at antisocial hours?

 

 

 

 

(Spelling edit.)

Sounds like your getting worried mike, has the penny finally dropped.

Edited March 13, 2015 by kris88

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Yes odd, isn't it. I imagine nobody here knows the answer to my two questions.

 

To my first question I speculate that breach of the T&Cs would be a civil matter and CRT are entitled to sue the boater for compensation.

 

To my second I think it is 'no'.

 

My 'speculation' is that if the T&Cs are at odds with the law, then the law would over-rule the T&Cs

 

So - within C&RTs T&Cs is the statement :

 

You are responsible for assessing whether it is safe to use the Waterway in flood or strong stream conditions. Our Waterway offices may be able to assist.

 

You decide the River is in flood and you are not happy to 'risk it' The local EO decides you have overstayed and instructs you to move, do you :

 

1) Argue and stay put and enforcement action commences Boat licence cancelled.

2) Move off, as instructed & the boat get damaged, and you 'blow up the engine' struggling against the flow.

 

Nether of these are hypothetical situations and both have happened 'under the same EO' in the Nottingham area.

[matty40s]

For FidoDido information, Nottingham is pretty full.

6 or 7 boats as soon as you come off the river opposite the Forest ground.

The visitor moorings and Castle Marina moorings are full, maybe one space for a 50 footer, and there are 18 boats at the Beeston Lock end.

In between, about 10 boats dotted along the towpath.

[MtB]

Sounds like your getting worried mike, has the penny finally dropped.

 

 

Not at all. You clearly don't read my posts on the subject. I've been saying right from the start I'm ready and willing to challenge the new T&C requiring home moorers to CC.

 

With my boating pattern and history I'm an ideal candidate. I'm gonna be fascinated to see if CRT choose to deny me a licence at next renewal. My questions are my first steps in planning how to play it should it come to pass.

[MtB]

If legal opinion turns out that the new T&C is enforcible, then I may as well give up the home mooring and Cc anyway. In which case it will be an own goal for CRT eh?!

[peterboat]

A tempting evening menu (guinea fowl for me, lamb shank for Mrs. Athy, please), but perhaps something simpler would be more appropriate at lunchtimes: "ploughman's" lunch, quiche and salad, that sort of thing.

 

Er, has anyone explained to the landlord what a pub is?

Most of it would do it for me and Jayne but as you say something cheaper would help

 

Peter

[GoodGurl]

For FidoDido information, Nottingham is pretty full.

6 or 7 boats as soon as you come off the river opposite the Forest ground.

The visitor moorings and Castle Marina moorings are full, maybe one space for a 50 footer, and there are 18 boats at the Beeston Lock end.

In between, about 10 boats dotted along the towpath.

i know when i have moored on beeston canal there has been a patrole boat going up and down in the form of a aluminum rib, last time i saw it there were 3 people on it.

[kris88]

 

 

Not at all. You clearly don't read my posts on the subject. I've been saying right from the start I'm ready and willing to challenge the new T&C requiring home moorers to CC.

 

.

More power to your elbow then, personally I think the new T&C'S are illegal, but whether they are enforceable or not depends on all of us.

Regards kris

[MtB]

More power to your elbow then, personally I think the new T&C'S are illegal, but whether they are enforceable or not depends on all of us.

Regards kris

 

 

It's not just the new T&Cs, it's any T&C's that I suspect are unenforceable. Hence my question.

 

One has to agree to a non-negotiable set of T&Cs in order to get a licence, whilst at the same time the issue of a licence is mandatory under the 1995 act provided the boat has a BSS, insurance and the appropriate declaration (home mooring or CC) is made according to Nigel.

 

Unstoppable force meets immovable object...

[kris88]

Sounds very zen

I also think I will be an ideal candidate for refusal of a liscence this year( although for different reasons.) I plan not to take it lying down.

Regards kris

[Tuscan]

Agree it's getting difficult , if I leave the marina and go down to the local visitor mooring and spend money in local pub I'm a good boy, if I do it too many times in a month then I'm a bad boy as I'm violating a 'no return' rule I can't find a legal definition of in the 95 Act. If I decide not to not return to the visitor mooring but moor either side of it 2 or 3 times I'm a bad boy because CRT legal tell me this is shuffling which is not allowed despite I still cant find a definition of it in any Act. I'm told I must go on a cruise between these two places but how far do I have to go before a shuffle becomes a cruise. Wait a minute I've heard this question somewhere before...

[MtB]

Agree it's getting difficult , if I leave the marina and go down to the local visitor mooring and spend money in local pub I'm a good boy, if I do it too many times in a month then I'm a bad boy as I'm violating a 'no return' rule I can't find a legal definition of in the 95 Act. If I decide not to not return to the visitor mooring but moor either side of it 2 or 3 times I'm a bad boy because CRT legal tell me this is shuffling which is not allowed despite I still cant find a definition of it in any Act. I'm told I must go on a cruise between these two places but how far do I have to go before a shuffle becomes a cruise. Wait a minute I've heard this question somewhere before...

 

And what is the difference between using the boat for cruising and using it 'bona fide for navigation'?

 

Maybe cruising is the term for using a boat 'mala fide for navigation' :-/

[Mac of Cygnet]

Goodgurl has provided a link in this thread to FAQs about the new T&Cs.

 

It includes

 

If you have a Home Mooring for your boat we do not expect you to follow the guidance for those who don’t have a Home Mooring. However, we do require you to cruise whilst away from the Home Mooring. If you are sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring, you will not be "cruising" and this may attract the attention of our enforcement team. In some cases we may seek to confirm with your mooring provider that you still have a berth with them.

 

"May attract the attention" doesn't sound very fierce. Neither does " In some cases we may seek to confirm with your mooring provider that you still have a berth with them."

Edited March 13, 2015 by Mac of Cygnet

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

It's not just the new T&Cs, it's any T&C's that I suspect are unenforceable. Hence my question.

 

One has to agree to a non-negotiable set of T&Cs in order to get a licence, whilst at the same time the issue of a licence is mandatory under the 1995 act provided the boat has a BSS, insurance and the appropriate declaration (home mooring or CC) is made according to Nigel.

 

Unstoppable force meets immovable object...

 

Here is another arrow to add to your quiver :

 

The opening paragraph to C&RTs T&Cs states :-

 

Numbered paragraphs below are legally binding general conditions. If you breach any of these, we are entitled to terminate your Licence and you could face legal action, which may result in the removal of your boat from our waterways.

 

The following is an UN-NUMBERED paragraph so presumably C&RT accept that it is not legally binding.

 

A HOME MOORING

 

The boat must have a home mooring (as defined in the Licence Terms and Conditions) - somewhere you can lawfully leave your boat when it is not being used for cruising.

Moorings are provided by a wide choice of boatyards and boat clubs, as well as by Canal & River Trust - www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating provides a moorings search facility that includes these moorings. It also includes helpful information about getting started with boating on inland waterways.

The only exceptions to the requirement to have a home mooring are: 

 

If the boat is removed from the water when it is not being used for cruising. 

The boat navigates without staying in any one place for more than fourteen days (or less where local signs indicate a shorter period). Please read our Guidance for Boaters without a Home Mooring below.

 

CRT new T&C proposal at 3.1: You must cruise on the waterways whilst you are away from the home mooring (save for any period when you leave the waterways or when the boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site).

The 1995 Act actually states : ‘(i) the Board is satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere’.

No mention of CRUISING in the 1995 Act - a small but significant change.

C&RT then go onto explain that when away from your home mooring you cannot remain in one place for more than 14 days.

So a boat with a home mooring, but away from its mooring, cannot stay in any one place exactly as laid out in the Guidelines for Boaters without a Home Mooring.

 

So - lets look at the guidance for Boaters without a Home Mooring - which co-incidently, is yet again an UN-NUMBERED paragraph so is not legally binding.

 

GUIDANCE FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

 

The law requires that the boat “will be bona fide used for navigation throughout the period of [the licence]”.

The terms ‘cruise’ and ‘cruising’ are used in this guidance to mean using a boat bona fide for navigation.

“Place”

The law requires that stops during such cruising should not be “in any one place for more than 14 days”. “Place” in this context means a neighbourhood or locality, NOT simply a particular mooring site or position.

Therefore to remain in the same neighbourhood for more than 14 days is not permitted

 

So to summarise (again) a boat WITH a home mooring, when away from his mooring must NOT remain in the same neighbourhood / place / locality for more than 14 days.

 

A very clever person used to trying to hide restrictive Terms & Conditions in a document has prepared this document and worked on he assumption that a 'lay person' will not take the trouble to follow the involved, interwoven thread of restrictions from one set of licensing conditions to another.

 

[MtB]

Goodgurl has provided a link to FAQs about the new T&Cs.

 

It includes

 

"May attract the attention" doesn't sound very fierce. Neither does " In some cases we may seek to confirm with your mooring provider that you still have a berth with them."

 

 

If that's the worst they are planning to do in the event of my continued bridge hopping, then that's fine with me.

 

I certinly don't object to them checking with my home mooring provider that I still rent a berth from him. Why on earth would I?

[GoodGurl]

 

 

If that's the worst they are planning to do in the event of my continued bridge hopping, then that's fine with me.

 

I certinly don't object to them checking with my home mooring provider that I still rent a berth from him. Why on earth would I?

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=74596#entry1529955

[MtB]

 

Here is another arrow to add to your quiver :

 

 

 

Thanks for all that Alan. Most helpful.

 

Somehow I doubt I'm gonna run into trouble anyway. My personal view is the new T&C is to help them deal with ghost moorings. Boaters who take a mooring, delare HM status, then cancel it, or simply declare a fictitious mooring seem to be the target judging by the threat to check with the home mooring provider.

[Emerald Fox]

MtB - "With my boating pattern and history I'm an ideal candidate. I'm gonna be fascinated to see if CRT choose to deny me a licence at next renewal."

 

We have seen your boat in 3 different places a fair way apart in the past 7 months so would be happy to inform CRT that you are not a Bridge-Hopper.

Actually, there is generally more than enough room on the canals for everyone.

What there is NOT enough of is volunteers (free labour) for dredging, maintaining the towpaths, restoring canals. What are YOU (people in general) doing this weekend?

[boathunter]

 

Here is another arrow to add to your quiver :

 

The opening paragraph to C&RTs T&Cs states :-

 

Numbered paragraphs below are legally binding general conditions. If you breach any of these, we are entitled to terminate your Licence and you could face legal action, which may result in the removal of your boat from our waterways.

 

The following is an UN-NUMBERED paragraph so presumably C&RT accept that it is not legally binding.

 

A HOME MOORING

 

The boat must have a home mooring (as defined in the Licence Terms and Conditions) - somewhere you can lawfully leave your boat when it is not being used for cruising.

Moorings are provided by a wide choice of boatyards and boat clubs, as well as by Canal & River Trust - www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating provides a moorings search facility that includes these moorings. It also includes helpful information about getting started with boating on inland waterways.

The only exceptions to the requirement to have a home mooring are: 

 

If the boat is removed from the water when it is not being used for cruising. 

The boat navigates without staying in any one place for more than fourteen days (or less where local signs indicate a shorter period). Please read our Guidance for Boaters without a Home Mooring below.

 

CRT new T&C proposal at 3.1: You must cruise on the waterways whilst you are away from the home mooring (save for any period when you leave the waterways or when the boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site).

The 1995 Act actually states : ‘(i) the Board is satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere’.

No mention of CRUISING in the 1995 Act - a small but significant change.

C&RT then go onto explain that when away from your home mooring you cannot remain in one place for more than 14 days.

So a boat with a home mooring, but away from its mooring, cannot stay in any one place exactly as laid out in the Guidelines for Boaters without a Home Mooring.

 

So - lets look at the guidance for Boaters without a Home Mooring - which co-incidently, is yet again an UN-NUMBERED paragraph so is not legally binding.

 

GUIDANCE FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

 

The law requires that the boat “will be bona fide used for navigation throughout the period of [the licence]”.

The terms ‘cruise’ and ‘cruising’ are used in this guidance to mean using a boat bona fide for navigation.

“Place”

The law requires that stops during such cruising should not be “in any one place for more than 14 days”. “Place” in this context means a neighbourhood or locality, NOT simply a particular mooring site or position.

Therefore to remain in the same neighbourhood for more than 14 days is not permitted

 

So to summarise (again) a boat WITH a home mooring, when away from his mooring must NOT remain in the same neighbourhood / place / locality for more than 14 days.

 

A very clever person used to trying to hide restrictive Terms & Conditions in a document has prepared this document and worked on he assumption that a 'lay person' will not take the trouble to follow the involved, interwoven thread of restrictions from one set of licensing conditions to another.

 

Very well spotted and explained. I for one would not have spotted that clever use of numbered paragraphs and ones not numbered. I wonder if they are also quite happy if their own enforcement officers won't either.

[mark99]

My take on it is CaRT are using the limited tools in their armoury to take control of the agenda, get a culture change and put a marker down to change the idea that you can rock up in a boat on any towpath of any town you like, stay there as an to alternative housing. They are doing this before it gets totally unmanageable in some hot spots spreading out to others.

[Delta9]

. My personal view is the new T&C is to help them deal with ghost moorings. Boaters who take a mooring, delare HM status, then cancel it, or simply declare a fictitious mooring seem to be the target judging by the threat to check with the home mooring provider.

How many boats can have the same home mooring? Could a marina with 10 moorings rent them cheaply as "low usage moorings" to 100 boats kind of like running a fractional reserve on the moorings assuming that no more than 10 boats will want to moor at any one time?

[Texasboater]

How many boats can have the same home mooring? Could a marina with 10 moorings rent them cheaply as "low usage moorings" to 100 boats kind of like running a fractional reserve on the moorings assuming that no more than 10 boats will want to moor at any one time?

Mooring Timeshares?

[n.b.Goldie]

How many boats can have the same home mooring? Could a marina with 10 moorings rent them cheaply as "low usage moorings" to 100 boats kind of like running a fractional reserve on the moorings assuming that no more than 10 boats will want to moor at any one time?

 

I would think it depends on the contract between marina and c&rt. A few years ago my boat club was queried by BW because way more boats declared the club as home mooring than our contract allowed. BW supplied us with a list of said boats and asked us to confirm which were correct so we got to see who had falsely declared. It was not up to us to tackle the offenders we just confirmed to BW and let them get on with it. We now update c&rt from time to time.