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Our "New" Back Cabin - Who painted what?


alan_fincher

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I'll start a new thread for this.

 

There is not a lot of decorative work in Flamingo's back cabin, but some is clearly old work reused, other is quite "modern", (or at least recently painted).

 

So what do the experts think, please, who painted what....

 

Table cupboard

 

IMG_7064_zpsfd49b26d.jpg

IMG_7065_zps565dc7f7.jpg

 

IMG_7066_zps3b9bd1a9.jpg

Coal Box

 

IMG_7055_zpsfb9d4767.jpg

Panels to side of steerer, (badly damaged)

 

IMG_7069_zpsd5719f73.jpg

IMG_7071_zps870df9ef.jpg

Relatively new back doors

 

IMG_7083_zps02058ef9.jpg

And what about the cabin interior generally. Possibly quite a lot of an old cabin interior reused when the back cabin skin was rebuilt in steel in the 1990s, but exact provenance unknown. Some bits certainly seem very much older than the 1990s, unless a lot of effort was put into faking "oldness".

Worth saving, or of little genuine historic interest?

 

What do the panel think, please ?

 

IMG_7089_zps244e7c30.jpg

 

IMG_7080_zpsb480d08c.jpg

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The doors look like Ron Hough's work, no idea about the rest. The little side panel could be older than the rest, or is it just weathered? I'd say a different painter from everything else.

 

Tim

 

Yes, I believe I was the newish back doors are recent work by Ron Hough, but this isn't my forte, so I thought I'd ask what people think about all of it.

 

My guess is the side panels are older than the rest, and almost certainly date from when it was in trade, but to my eye do not stand out as anything out of the ordinary. Someone will probably now tell me just how wrong I am!

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I'll start a new thread for this.

 

There is not a lot of decorative work in Flamingo's back cabin, but some is clearly old work reused, other is quite "modern", (or at least recently painted).

 

So what do the experts think, please, who painted what....

 

Table cupboard

 

IMG_7064_zpsfd49b26d.jpg

 

IMG_7065_zps565dc7f7.jpg

 

IMG_7066_zps3b9bd1a9.jpg

 

Coal Box

 

IMG_7055_zpsfb9d4767.jpg

 

Panels to side of steerer, (badly damaged)

 

IMG_7069_zpsd5719f73.jpg

 

IMG_7071_zps870df9ef.jpg

 

Relatively new back doors

 

IMG_7083_zps02058ef9.jpg

 

And what about the cabin interior generally. Possibly quite a lot of an old cabin interior reused when the back cabin skin was rebuilt in steel in the 1990s, but exact provenance unknown. Some bits certainly seem very much older than the 1990s, unless a lot of effort was put into faking "oldness".

 

Worth saving, or of little genuine historic interest?

 

What do the panel think, please ?

 

IMG_7089_zps244e7c30.jpg

 

IMG_7080_zpsb480d08c.jpg

 

 

Those two new doors are Ron Hough, all the rest looks like Dennis Clarke ( not all done at the same time). Unfortunately nothing at all of Jess Owen's left ( the old cabin doors of his were still on during the last days of carrying with Ken Ward, and I don't recall them being replaced when Ron Withy had her after Ken finished).

PS. Dennis Clarke learned how to paint from his uncle Frank ( Nurser).

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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I do not know who painted any of it, but I have no sentiment for such things. There are plenty of examples of 'historic' traditional painting by most if not all of the most respected painters. If any of it has 'historic' value I would say it is the weatherboard ("panels to the side of the steerer"), but as you say this carries considerable damage (partly from age and partly from that large brass door hook).

 

To me a back cabin should be a comfortable place, and of course decorated to a high standard - preferably by the same high quality painter. To my eye FLAMINGO's cabin is to 'bitsy' and wants to be completely repainted - just as it would have been in the past. The table cupboard castle looks to be unfinished and the roses are bland as they have no colour, and I prefer the outer panels to be gloss painted rather than grained (better visual impact and contrasts better with the polished brass knobs). I would go for a darker green than it looks elsewhere in the photographs.

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Those two new doors are Ron Hough, all the rest looks like Dennis Clarke ( not all done at the same time). Unfortunately nothing at all of Jess Owen's left.

Yes,

 

That seems to sum it up, based on other people's thoughts.

 

Thanks for confirming that view.

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Good point about the caste. No seagulls, flagpole, sailing boats in the water or a bridge.

 

I think a hot air balloon was often included too.

 

MtB

Not heard that before.

 

BADSEY used to have topless sunbathers painted into the castle panel (although I do not recall seeing them - it was a subsequent owner that pointed them out).

 

When HALSALL was restored in the early 1990's the castle panel at the top of the weatherboard had a tidy portait of Donald Duck, the owner at that time being known as 'The Duck' (his real name being Donald) captain.gif The rest of the boat carried a very nice second generation 'British Waterways' livery.

Edited by pete harrison
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Good point about the caste. No seagulls, flagpole, sailing boats in the water or a bridge.

 

I think a hot air balloon was often included too.

 

MtB

 

It certainly seems to have been painted by Dennis Clarke, or at least that is where consensus is landing.

 

I'm not sure of exact description of his role, but Dennis was Leslie Morton's "yard manager" at Braunston, so (I'm guessing) the painting was probably not his primary skill.

 

That said, Willow Wren do seem to have switched boats remarkably frequently between pairs and steerers, so I guess it is possible the work wasn't fully finished, because the boat was needed to be swapped out with another.

 

I can't help thinking that as it actually has Willow Wren provenance, it should maybe stay, but I can't claim it to be an example I would be drawn to if it didn't have those origins.

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Hi Alan

 

The back doors are Ron Hough without a doubt. I'm also minded to go with Dennis Clarke for the other work, based on what I have here of his and following time I spent with Roger Hatchard recently, looking at his extensive collection of painted ware which included Dennis's painting.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dave

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Hi Alan

 

The back doors are Ron Hough without a doubt. I'm also minded to go with Dennis Clarke for the other work, based on what I have here of his and following time I spent with Roger Hatchard recently, looking at his extensive collection of painted ware which included Dennis's painting.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dave

 

Agreed.

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You asked early on - should any of it be kept?

 

My answer is yes, all of it. That's what preservation is all about. The fact that the work is by various painters adds to the charm and the interest.

If the boat was a National Trust property (Heavens forfend!), every last imperfection would be lovingly restored......

 

I take my hat off to you and others who work hard to keep older boats going.

Such a delight to see and a welcome change from the blandness and uniformity of some current builds.

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Yo - I`m back !

 

It`s perhaps presumptious of me to disagree with Tony Dunkley but....................................

 

The roses on the weatherboard are 100% Dennis Clarke but I don`t think any of the others are. Compare the brushwork in the rose petals and the way the veins are painted on the leaves. The roses that stand alone on a green background are totally different and the ones on the table cupboard are different again. Here`s my (fairly timid) theory. Cabin was painted at Braunston during the post Nurser era, by three painters. This often happened both on boats and in the loft where they produced painted ware. So; The roses on the table cupboard are by a very young Ron Hough - the way the main rose petal is painted has a very characteristic shape which can be traced through the ongoing development of his style right up to recent times and same is true of the leaves. The ones on the green background differ from any others in the cabin and could be by another painter altogether, maybe Colin Clarke or the one whose name I can never remember ! Check the detail and the more precise and therefor slower application.

The castles are difficult. Again the weatherboard seems to be Dennis Clarke and given that the Braunston painters tended to paint a panel from start to finish before starting another one its likely ( if I`m right ) that he did the castle and the roses on the weatherboard at the same time. I`m reluctant to apply the same logic to Ron Hough with the table cupboard. That castle doesn`t look remotely professional to me and I can`t see much to suggest that a painter trained by Nurser ( Hough or Clarke ) in the painting of it. It may well be a repaint over the top , or copied from, earlier painting. There are similarities in the foregrounds of both castles but none whatsoever in the execution of the castles themselves.

The backdoors , are everyone seems to agree, are much later and painted by Ron. Bet you wish I`d stayed away now !


Not heard that before.

 

BADSEY used to have topless sunbathers painted into the castle panel (although I do not recall seeing them - it was a subsequent owner that pointed them out).

 

When HALSALL was restored in the early 1990's the castle panel at the top of the weatherboard had a tidy portait of Donald Duck, the owner at that time being known as 'The Duck' (his real name being Donald) captain.gif The rest of the boat carried a very nice second generation 'British Waterways' livery.

 

Not heard that before.

 

BADSEY used to have topless sunbathers painted into the castle panel (although I do not recall seeing them - it was a subsequent owner that pointed them out).

 

When HALSALL was restored in the early 1990's the castle panel at the top of the weatherboard had a tidy portait of Donald Duck, the owner at that time being known as 'The Duck' (his real name being Donald) captain.gif The rest of the boat carried a very nice second generation 'British Waterways' livery.

Hi Pete. I saw them - they were actually a transfer, The guy wore a Stetson and cowboy boots the gal similar but much more winsome items. I know their significance as well but it`s not my story to tell.

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I`m reluctant to apply the same logic to Ron Hough with the table cupboard. That castle doesn`t look remotely professional to me and I can`t see much to suggest that a painter trained by Nurser ( Hough or Clarke ) in the painting of it. It may well be a repaint over the top , or copied from, earlier painting. There are similarities in the foregrounds of both castles but none whatsoever in the execution of the castles themselves.

 

Thanks Phil,

 

The word passed back via Brinklow Boats said that the table cupboard painting was by Dennis Clark, but I don't have confirmation of where that comes from. However, to my completely untrained eye, the castle also looks far from "professional" as you suggest.

 

What is your personal view about the extent to which any of this work should be preserved, please, or indeed the "oldness" of the cabin interior generally?

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Yo - I`m back !

 

It`s perhaps presumptious of me to disagree with Tony Dunkley but....................................

 

The roses on the weatherboard are 100% Dennis Clarke but I don`t think any of the others are. Compare the brushwork in the rose petals and the way the veins are painted on the leaves. The roses that stand alone on a green background are totally different and the ones on the table cupboard are different again. Here`s my (fairly timid) theory. Cabin was painted at Braunston during the post Nurser era, by three painters. This often happened both on boats and in the loft where they produced painted ware. So; The roses on the table cupboard are by a very young Ron Hough - the way the main rose petal is painted has a very characteristic shape which can be traced through the ongoing development of his style right up to recent times and same is true of the leaves. The ones on the green background differ from any others in the cabin and could be by another painter altogether, maybe Colin Clarke or the one whose name I can never remember ! Check the detail and the more precise and therefor slower application.

The castles are difficult. Again the weatherboard seems to be Dennis Clarke and given that the Braunston painters tended to paint a panel from start to finish before starting another one its likely ( if I`m right ) that he did the castle and the roses on the weatherboard at the same time. I`m reluctant to apply the same logic to Ron Hough with the table cupboard. That castle doesn`t look remotely professional to me and I can`t see much to suggest that a painter trained by Nurser ( Hough or Clarke ) in the painting of it. It may well be a repaint over the top , or copied from, earlier painting. There are similarities in the foregrounds of both castles but none whatsoever in the execution of the castles themselves.

The backdoors , are everyone seems to agree, are much later and painted by Ron. Bet you wish I`d stayed away now !

 

I must admit that when I looked at some of the castles, I did wonder whether they were Dennis Clark or not. But if they are not his, they do bear a resemblence to some he has painted, so maybe they were copies. Part of the problem is that painters changed their style over the years and early work sometimes bears little more than a passing resemblence to later work, I have examples of work by Ron Hough spanning more than thirty years and whilst they cannot be mistaken for anyone elswes work, the style particularly of the roses has changed significantly.

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Yo - I`m back !

 

It`s perhaps presumptious of me to disagree with Tony Dunkley but....................................

 

The roses on the weatherboard are 100% Dennis Clarke but I don`t think any of the others are. Compare the brushwork in the rose petals and the way the veins are painted on the leaves. The roses that stand alone on a green background are totally different and the ones on the table cupboard are different again. Here`s my (fairly timid) theory. Cabin was painted at Braunston during the post Nurser era, by three painters. This often happened both on boats and in the loft where they produced painted ware. So; The roses on the table cupboard are by a very young Ron Hough - the way the main rose petal is painted has a very characteristic shape which can be traced through the ongoing development of his style right up to recent times and same is true of the leaves. The ones on the green background differ from any others in the cabin and could be by another painter altogether, maybe Colin Clarke or the one whose name I can never remember ! Check the detail and the more precise and therefor slower application.

The castles are difficult. Again the weatherboard seems to be Dennis Clarke and given that the Braunston painters tended to paint a panel from start to finish before starting another one its likely ( if I`m right ) that he did the castle and the roses on the weatherboard at the same time. I`m reluctant to apply the same logic to Ron Hough with the table cupboard. That castle doesn`t look remotely professional to me and I can`t see much to suggest that a painter trained by Nurser ( Hough or Clarke ) in the painting of it. It may well be a repaint over the top , or copied from, earlier painting. There are similarities in the foregrounds of both castles but none whatsoever in the execution of the castles themselves.

The backdoors , are everyone seems to agree, are much later and painted by Ron. Bet you wish I`d stayed away now !

 

 

Looking again, I do agree that the newest looking lot [coal box?] do seem to be someone else's work, may possibly be done fairly recently by someone copying Braunston style.

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there appears to be something under the first painting or is that just an illusion of light

You're right, and the shadowy outline looks to me very like the castle shape favoured by Jess Owen, so there may be one by Jess underneath.

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Thanks Phil,

 

The word passed back via Brinklow Boats said that the table cupboard painting was by Dennis Clark, but I don't have confirmation of where that comes from. However, to my completely untrained eye, the castle also looks far from "professional" as you suggest.

 

What is your personal view about the extent to which any of this work should be preserved, please, or indeed the "oldness" of the cabin interior generally?

 

I had a similar problem with a door panel and old back cabin doors on Helvetia painted by ron Hough in the early 1980's. The door panel had rotted at the bottom, and was not repairable, whilst the back cabin doors were suffering from degredation of the original paint. In the end I removed the door panel and replaced it with a new one which Ron Hough painted for me. Fortunately none of the decoration on the old panel had been seriously compromised by the rotting, so I trimmed it, varnished it, and mounted it in a painted frame, which i will keep as a momento of Ron's earlier work.

 

The back cabin doors have been replaced by a new pair also painted by Ron, although ten years on and the paintwork on them is beginning to fail. The old doors have been stabilized and re-varnished and are currently stored in my (insulated) loft, along wth another pair of back cabin doors painted by Will Hewitt formerly of UCC Braunston.

 

You really seem have two choices, either try and conserve the present work and keep it on the boat, or remove it and conserve it off the boat, repacing the original panels and doors with new ones, and have them painted by someone like Phil Speight or Dave Moore.

 

I think I would be persuasded to go for the second option (easy for me to say as it isn't my boat). Whilst it might be the best "National Trust" approach to conserve the work on the boat, it will still deteriorate and a new owner in the future might remove it any way, wheras conserving it and keeping it in an environment where it will remain stable and will preserve the work for future generations to appreciate. and If the mind ever took you at some time in the future you could always reinstall it back into the boat!

Edited by David Schweizer
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I was about to say that The cabin doors were replaced around a year ago, but looking at some photos that I took at the same time it would seem to be over three! They were painted by Ron Hough whilst off the boat, before their final fitting. I think Robert Macintyre did the graining.

 

I agree with Phil that the weather board is definitely Dennis Clark, and I had thought that the table was as well, but I take Phil's point, Ron's early work is a possibility. I'm not sure about the castle on the table, it is very basic and seems to have been done very quickly but think it does have a Braunston feel to it in spite of this.

 

I agree with Tony Dunkley that the coal box is much more recent. I don't recognise the painter but I think that Carol Leech ( Ivor and Carol had the boat converted) did do some painting, perhaps it is her work

 

Steve

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