Any tips on mounting wind turbines

[Doodlebug]

Hi all,

 

Just getting ready to mount my wind turbine on the roof and wondered if anyone has any clever tips that they have set up on theirs that makes putting it up and taking it down easy.

 

I was thinking of using 3 guy lines then one would be attached to a winch to lower and raise it remotely. But I can't really afford that for the time being so wondered if there are any better ideas.

 

Some sort of clip system to undo guy lines is fine until its windy and we need to go fill with water. Thats the main thing im worried about. How do you take it down in stronger winds.

 

Any ideas appreciated

 

Cheers

 

Doodlebug

[Paul G2]

I once had a 30' sailboat with a step down mast on it for going under bridges. Maybe you should look at some sailboats and see what kind of inspiration you can get from them. You should also note that sail boats have only one stay fore and aft but generally have at least three on each side. This addresses the stresses on the guy wires that you were discussing yesterday.

 

I added the step down system to my boat and it was a tad costly, but that's the nature of sailboats. You might be able to find some used rigging that you can make work on your boat. It's just a hinged mounting bracket and a release of sorts on the forestay and some of the side stays. You might even look for some used gear from an old sailing barge or tjalk. They have winches and all kinds of stuff for taking down a heavy wooden mast and you might be able to find something cheap.

 

Taking the turbine down on a windy day sounds like an accident looking for a place to happen, unless the turbine has a brake on it. The blades you are talking about sound like they are big enough to do some serious damage to your head or body if they hit you whilst turning.

 

Good luck with your project!

[Higgs]

Not that mine is fitted yet, but I've had a foot made for it so that the pole can swing down. The foot will be attached to the roof by four cotton reel type rubber dampers. You should be able to walk the pole down without too much straining; keeping two wires attached at the sides and releasing one, front or back. I'd planned to have four wires in all. All theory, you understand.

[Doodlebug]

Ok thanks the sailboats looks like something to look into. My plan is to be able to do it when i'm not stood anywhere near the blades. Although I plan to fit them so I can brake them when I want to I did think that as it lowers, the tail (which is the heavy side) will swing down and out of the wind stopping it spinning so it can then be lowered gently down.

 

Obviously getting up on the roof in theory gives more control but i've never stood on the roof in a gale - it also involves watching out for the spinning blades unless I can use the boat pole to hook the tail and turn it out the wind before getting up.

[Higgs]

 

 

Taking the turbine down on a windy day sounds like an accident looking for a place to happen, unless the turbine has a brake on it. The blades you are talking about sound like they are big enough to do some serious damage to your head or body if they hit you whilst turning.

 

Good luck with your project!

 

Rutlands have a braking system. At least that's what it says in the manual. Hope it works.

[George94]

Sailing boats have stays fore and aft, and shrouds at the sides. Normally one per side these days, not three.

 

You will learn little to help you from looking at masts because the stresses are an order of magnitude greater.

 

You can buy a trailer winch on Ebay for just a few quid, and this would do the trick. Alternatively, use a handy billy, but the winch would probably be cheaper.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200LB-HAND-WINCH-BOAT-MARINE-TRAILER-65FT-MANUAL-/320581554406?pt=UK_Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item4aa42650e6

 

ETA: The gentleman selling this particular winch states that the cable is 3/6" diameter. i suspect that he means 3/16".

Edited August 21, 2014 by George94

[Doodlebug]

Sailing boats have stays fore and aft, and shrouds at the sides. Normally one per side these days, not three.

 

You will learn little to help you from looking at masts because the stresses are an order of magnitude greater.

 

You can buy a trailer winch on Ebay for just a few quid, and this would do the trick. Alternatively, use a handy billy, but the winch would probably be cheaper.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200LB-HAND-WINCH-BOAT-MARINE-TRAILER-65FT-MANUAL-/320581554406?pt=UK_Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item4aa42650e6

 

Perfect! But stupid question - how do you attach it to the boat. It looks like the handle wont turn once attached unless you make some sort of bracket. Which ten involves a bit of steel fabrication which i'd rather avoid.

[bizzard]

The pivot fitting on a yachts deck or coach roof for lowering the mast is called a Tabernacle. Use only multi strand stainless steel rigging wire to stay it not the cheap soft iron stuff sold at some iron mongers, it will stretch, go limp and eventually snap.

A good method would be to weld a tube from roof to floor inside the cabin with the generators pole a good close fit inside it like a piston with a seal. The pole can then be raised and lowered in the cosy warm by various methods. Hydraulically, manually on a winding rack system or even submarine style by compressed air with a pair of handles on it. Up periscope!!. And the tube inside can be used for pole dancing exhibitions.

[George94]

 

Perfect! But stupid question - how do you attach it to the boat. It looks like the handle wont turn once attached unless you make some sort of bracket. Which ten involves a bit of steel fabrication which i'd rather avoid.

 

I would mount it either at the back or front of the boat, furthest away from the mast, and on the side so that the handle will turn. Being slightly offset will make no difference.

 

Then three self-tapping bolts into the roof.

And the tube inside can be used for pole dancing exhibitions.

 

Now you are talking!

[Doodlebug]

And the tube inside can be used for pole dancing exhibitions.

 

I'll see what Mrs Doodlebug has to say about that!

 

Its a good idea though to be fair (the telescopic bit) but its having space inside for that.

 

I hadn't realised you get different grades of wire rope. Fortunately the turbine came with some so I assume its the good stuff.

 

I wanted to mount it on the back in the first place. the problem is that being 2m tall it needs somewhere 2m long to lower down onto. It has to be central to the boat so the guy ropes are equal and our top boxes take up half the roof, although I could adapt them.

 

Its a case of working out the best compromise. As I plan it it will lower down onto the hatch.

[George94]

 

I'll see what Mrs Doodlebug has to say about that!

 

Its a good idea though to be fair (the telescopic bit) but its having space inside for that.

 

I hadn't realised you get different grades of wire rope. Fortunately the turbine came with some so I assume its the good stuff.

 

I wanted to mount it on the back in the first place. the problem is that being 2m tall it needs somewhere 2m long to lower down onto. It has to be central to the boat so the guy ropes are equal and our top boxes take up half the roof, although I could adapt them.

 

Its a case of working out the best compromise. As I plan it it will lower down onto the hatch.

 

If you do need to make a bracket, there is no reason not to use wood. Thick ply or a heavy lump of softwood with bolts right through.

 

The stresses on the stays which some people have claimed for this turbine are way over the top.

 

BTW, Bizz is right, as ever, about stainless cable - when it comes to a sailing boat's mast. They have to be totally non-stretchable. But a bit of stretch in your stays won't matter much. And you could buy cheap galvanised turnbuckles to tighten them if you needed to.

 

ETA: thinking about it, if one of your stays is the winch cable, you can tighten the stays by putting a fraction of a turn on the winch.

Edited August 21, 2014 by George94

[Doodlebug]

Also I was thinking of putting these on each guy rope to absorb vibrations

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sailing-Today-Bungy-Mooring-Compensators-Weatherproof-Rubber-Boating-2-Pack-New-/221168051968?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing&hash=item337ea4a700

 

If you do need to make a bracket, there is no reason not to use wood. Thick ply or a heavy lump of softwood with bolts right through.

 

The stresses on the stays which some people have claimed for this turbine are way over the top.

 

BTW, Bizz is right, as ever, about stainless cable - when it comes to a sailing boat's mast. They have to be totally non-stretchable. But a bit of stretch in your stays won't matter much. And you could buy cheap galvanised turnbuckles to tighten them if you needed to.

 

Ahh well that puts that idea out of action. I was figuring a little bit of shock absorbing on the ropes cant be bad. Maybe I just put a thin rubber mat between the rope and the steel.

 

How thick before it becomes too thick though? I.e. if the winch was bolted through 20mm of ply I can see that would be strong. But by the looks of that winch it would need to be bolted onto 200mm of ply and the stresses would be going perpendicular to the bolts. If that makes sense?

[George94]

Also I was thinking of putting these on each guy rope to absorb vibrations

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sailing-Today-Bungy-Mooring-Compensators-Weatherproof-Rubber-Boating-2-Pack-New-/221168051968?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing&hash=item337ea4a700

 

Ahh well that puts that idea out of action. I was figuring a little bit of shock absorbing on the ropes cant be bad. Maybe I just put a thin rubber mat between the rope and the steel.

 

How thick before it becomes too thick though? I.e. if the winch was bolted through 20mm of ply I can see that would be strong. But by the looks of that winch it would need to be bolted onto 200mm of ply and the stresses would be going perpendicular to the bolts. If that makes sense?

 

I'd be wary of those. They are designed to absorb sudden shocks in mooring lines which otherwise might snap the line.

 

They might or might not absorb vibrations.

[FadeToScarlet]

When we had a wind turbine, I had four guy ropes, with two of them having a bottle screw and karabiner clip, which hooked over two cleats and were then tightened. That way, you could slacken it off and unhook the two guy ropes, then walk the mast down.

 

Don't put it over your bedroom, though. Drove me mad.

[jelunga]

My suggsstion is

Dont bother.

Our Rutland on a 12' pole was a total waste of money and space. But might made a good mud weight!

[bizzard]

A 2 metre pole on a tabernacle even with the buzzer on top can't be that heavy, surely it could be raised and lowered with one hand without a winch. With the two side stays attached and using the other hand to grasp the forestay and nip forward to attach it to say a simple hook-eye bolt fitting with a bottle screw included to tension it. We used to raise and lower 12-15' or so high dinghy masts 'not on a tabernacle' single handed like that.

Edited August 21, 2014 by bizzard

[Doodlebug]

What about if instead of a winch I used a mooring cleat and just tie a rope on?

 

I.e. rope would come down from the guy line and through the cleat. Then if the wind is blowing it can be gently lowered as you might do when descending in a lock. Using the rope friction to hold it.

 

Question is what rope is considered good enough?

[Paul G2]

A 2 metre pole on a tabernacle even with the buzzer on top can't be that heavy, surely it could be raised and lowered with one hand without a winch. With the two side stays attached and using the other hand to grasp the forestay and nip forward to attach it to say a simple hook-eye bolt fitting with a bottle screw included to tension it. We used to raise and lower 12-15' or so high dinghy masts 'not on a tabernacle' single handed like that.

 

I could step my 34' mast by myself. It wasn't all that heavy and it was hinged, so you actually just got underneath it and walked it up. The expensive part of the process was the rigging, mostly just because sailboat rigging is expensive.

 

What was problematic about the whole operation, before the special rigging, was getting the shrouds and stays re-attached after the mast was up. It was a royal PITA to try to put the pins in the connectors while under tension, and un-tensioning then re-tensioning turnbuckles was time consuming. The main cost of the system, and the part that made it convenient, was the quick releases on the shrouds and stay.

 

If you think about Doodlebug's situation, how high up the pole can the guys go? Remember, the blades have to be clear of the guys in a 360° circle, so the guys can't go all the way to the top of the pole, I wouldn't think. What about adapting the telescoping pole idea but have it mounted externally. Two meters really isn't that much pole. If you put a one meter pole inside of another 1.2 meter pole, you could lower the pole and it would only be 1.2 meter tall. If you didn't have to go under anything real low, you could navigate short distances with the pole like that, maybe even long distances, I dunno. You could build it so that the base pole then folded down if necessary. A used one meter hydraulic ram could probably be found cheap enough and the hydraulic pump could be hand powered. You could even rig the hydraulic pump with quick disconnects so that you only had to have it connected when putting the pipe up or down and it could be stowed when not in use.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Paul G2

[George94]

Also I was thinking of putting these on each guy rope to absorb vibrations

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sailing-Today-Bungy-Mooring-Compensators-Weatherproof-Rubber-Boating-2-Pack-New-/221168051968?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing&hash=item337ea4a700

 

Ahh well that puts that idea out of action. I was figuring a little bit of shock absorbing on the ropes cant be bad. Maybe I just put a thin rubber mat between the rope and the steel.

 

How thick before it becomes too thick though? I.e. if the winch was bolted through 20mm of ply I can see that would be strong. But by the looks of that winch it would need to be bolted onto 200mm of ply and the stresses would be going perpendicular to the bolts. If that makes sense?

 

Doodle, in most circumstances you would easily be able to raise and lower the turbine without mechanical assistance. The purpose of the winch is to cope with those hopefully rare situations where you go to bed on a seemingly calm night, only to be awakened by a gale and a turbine that is threatening to tip the boat over.

 

Staggering out into the driving rain with your sou'wester tied on tightly, and faced with slippery decks, you will want a defined and practised modus operandi for lowering the damned thing in a hurry.

 

The last thing you want to do is to have to rush from one end of the boat to the other, either inside or outside, so a way of dealing with the entire lowering operation from one place needs to be found.

 

We must remember that this is not a lightweight Rutland, but a ravening beast operating at full pelt, and perhaps with a gyroscopic effect to add to the difficulties.

 

We also need to remember that lowering the mast AGAINST the wind will be easier than WITH the wind. In the former case, the wind will attempt to keep it up, whilst in the latter it will cause it to come crashing down, unless you can control the descent by slowly lengthening the stay on the windward side.

 

So ideally you should have a way to lower the mast in either direction, and always do it against the wind.

 

This can be achieved by having two shrouds either side of the boat, and attached in the same horizontal and vertical planes as the bottom of the mast, in order to keep tension whatever the angle of the mast. Because, of course, the wind will never be where you want it to be, and you need to retain sideways tension throughout the operation.

 

Then the stays (fore and aft) should be arranged so that the mast can be lowered in either direction.

 

If this isn't possible, then the way of lowering the mast will be either to winch it against the wind, or to pay out the stay on the windward side if the wind is in the other direction.

 

This will be easiest to achieve if the shrouds are made of steel, but the stays of polyester (non-stretching) rope, which can be led through pulleys.

 

The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that you should NEVER find yourself in a position where you have to lower the thing in a strong wind.

 

Picture it. The wind and rain blinding you, the loose stay flapping all over the place, and getting caught in the blades. The turbine coming down with blades flailing and flying off when they hit the deck. A bloodied Doodle, slipping in his own gore. It doesn't bear thinking about.

 

But certainly, two shrouds and two stays, with the far stay led through pulleys back to the lowering position, is the way to go.

 

Food for thought, eh?

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

I think there are some very simple Guidelines to follow in regards to mounting a WG imo.

 

ANY Metal to Metal Contact throughout your whole Rig (Even your fixing Bolts).is BAD. Rubber is your friend.

 

It would be of GREAT advantage to have any installation, Easily Assembled / Disassembled or Raised / Lowerd for ease of use.

 

It would be sensible to have the Lowest or outermost tip of the Blade area, to have at LEAST 3 or 4ft clearance from the CLOSEST point Anyone can get to it.

 

Consider ONLY Erecting the installation at the End of the Days cruise, or if Static for a number of Days.

 

Try and keep the installation as simple as possible, with as few connections as is practically possible. (Less to go wrong or Fail).

 

BEFORE actually ATTEMPTING to mount your chosen installation ANYWHERE permanently, Roof Batten, Pencil Measuring Tape and Sketch Pad & Tweezers to extract the Splinters from you Scratching Finger will be of GREAT use, if used correctly with a Hot Beverage & Donuts !.

 

Good luck, & don't forget some pics and performance results of your set up.

Cheers for now.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Higgs]

The pivot fitting on a yachts deck or coach roof for lowering the mast is called a Tabernacle. Use only multi strand stainless steel rigging wire to stay it not the cheap soft iron stuff sold at some iron mongers, it will stretch, go limp and eventually snap.

 

 

Do you know of a good rigging company that could make the stainless steel wires up and provide SS shackles etc?

[Doodlebug]

 

 

Do you know of a good rigging company that could make the stainless steel wires up and provide SS shackles etc?

 

Well its come with the wire rope and fittings so no worries there.

 

Had what I think is a great idea. Gas struts fitted to the mast so that even when the support is removed it steadies it. Then I can just push it down carefully without needing to worry about sudden gusts of wind.

 

Question is does anyone know how to calculate what strength I need?

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Cheers

[johnmck]

"Any tips on mounting wind turbines"

 

I read the title and thought........Pervert.

[George94]

"Any tips on mounting wind turbines"

 

I read the title and thought........Pervert.

 

It's the person who thinks that way that is the pervert.

 

Life would be so boring without a few carefully selected perversions.

[Doodlebug]

Or possibly better a hydraulic jack thingy that can be pumped and released to let the thing down.