Widebeam HMRC advice needed pleeeeeease!

[Ex- Member]

One thing that should be noted is that a qualifying ship is not VAT free, VAT is charged at 0%, there is a very subtle difference and I believe this means that the responsibility for VAT lies with the seller not the buyer.

Just make sure if you do go ahead that the invoice says VAT charged at 0%.

 

You're right, the responsibility for v.a.t is that of the builder. If their' willing to sell a boat 0% vat then that's down to them. We had our boat built at 0% rate and some time later when posting on here about it. some members pointed out than not only was the zero v.a.t rating dodgy but the calculation for the tonnage was also incorrect.

 

Fortunately checking with my solicitor there would be no come back on us, the builder is responsible for charging v.a.t. Luckily there's no issue now either as 7 years have elapsed and the company no longer exists anyway.

 

There was a post on here quite some time ago regarding a court case with regard to this, it was quite interesting.

 

Viking boats seem to have found a loophole possibly though.

[junior]

If you're planning on bringing a WB onto the Grand Union south I'd hurry up. At the rate they are arriving soon there won't be room for anymore.

[LoneEcho]

Viking boats seem to have found a loophole possibly though.

 

As far as I know Viking make the correct calculations (using measurements to the gunwale) and will only build a 70x12 vat free. I asked them if there was anything they could do about claiming back on my 60, but they said no. There is another popular company that I mentioned previously that argue that there narrow gunwales mean the calculation can be used using measurement to the roof. I understand that HMRC have accepted this, so may be worth looking into for any prospective buyers.

[J R ALSOP]

Buy yourself a camper van and save yourself a lot of aggravation, that way you will not upset any boaters trying to navigate bona fide.

[Southern Star]

One thing that should be noted is that a qualifying ship is not VAT free, VAT is charged at 0%, there is a very subtle difference and I believe this means that the responsibility for VAT lies with the seller not the buyer.

Just make sure if you do go ahead that the invoice says VAT charged at 0%.

If an item is zero-rated, this means that the vendor does not charge VAT for its product/ service, but can reclaim VAT that it pays out. The best example is a bus company, bus fares are not subject to VAT but the bus company can reclaim the VAT on the diesel it buys.

[Ex- Member]

If an item is zero-rated, this means that the vendor does not charge VAT for its product/ service, but can reclaim VAT that it pays out. The best example is a bus company, bus fares are not subject to VAT but the bus company can reclaim the VAT on the diesel it buys.

 

You completely miss the point.

 

If an item is zero-rated, this means that the vendor does not charge VAT for its product/ service,

 

 

No he doesn't charge vat, as zero rate = zero. But being vat registerred he has to state 0 rated. The point Loddon makes is that it still has to be treated as a vatable item.

 

If a boat builder isn't v.a.t registered he could sell a wide beam boat and have no requirement to charge v.a.t and not require to note v.a.t on any invoice.

 

That's the subtle difference Loddon refers to. If zero rated is not stated on an invoice raised by a company that's v.a.t registered, that would be illegal in the eyes of HMRC and could have ramifications with future purchases of equipment for the boat.

[Ssscrudddy]

Buy yourself a camper van and save yourself a lot of aggravation, that way you will not upset any boaters trying to navigate bona fide.

Ooh, hark at him!

 

So why cant he have a boat, because it's a widebeam, dont you approve?

One wonders what else is on your ban list that means you arent allowed to boat... In your not so very humble opinion.

A pumpout toilet perhaps?

[MtB]

 

If a boat builder isn't v.a.t registered he could sell a wide beam boat and have no requirement to charge v.a.t and not require to note v.a.t on any invoice.

 

 

But the unregistered builder has to pay VAT of all the materials he used to build the boat and can't reclaim it so he will be far more expensive than the VAT registered builder.. The VAT registered builder reclaims all that VAT but charges VAT at 0% on his finished product.

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

A builder who is not VAT registered can only be building 1 or maybe 2 boats (maybe sailaways) per year to stay below the threshold. by the time he has paid for a shed rental, rates, wages materials I would'nt have thought it was worth being in business.

[Bikervet]

Yup, it's a very confusing and grey area still! I'd assume that most reputable large boat building companies will be VAT registered. As most of you say, it would be difficult to keep below the threshold so I'm hoping that we could try get a zero rated boat. The more I read the more it seems feasible but I think you'd have to be quite specific in a few modifications during the build to reach dimensions that would ensure more than 15 gross tonnage. I've read articles on two widebeams out there that have been legally 0% VAT on purchase (boats named Zoe and Piper. Both gorgeous boats). Some discuss about lifting the line of the gunwales during the build so increasing the value of the depth/drought(?) dimension. This would then increase gross tonnage using the formula used to calculate it to fit in with the tonnage requirement stated by the HMRC.

 

We didn't have time to speak to the New and Used Boat Company, so no update just yet. Will let you all know tomorrow how it goes.

 

To J R ALSOP (sorry, my phone won't let me highlight posts and reply to individuals) I hope to never aggravate fellow boat users and it would never be my intention to do so. We did consider a camper van but the comforts of a widebeam, the lifestyle and most importantly, the community of the canal boating world suited us more. They're a great bunch, as already proven in this thread .

[MtB]

A builder who is not VAT registered can only be building 1 or maybe 2 boats (maybe sailaways) per year to stay below the threshold. by the time he has paid for a shed rental, rates, wages materials I would'nt have thought it was worth being in business.

 

Yes. You can be reasonably certain any builder not VAT registered is either cooking the books or doesn't have any in the first place, and will require cash payment with no receipts etc, meaning you'll need to establish a very 'trust based' relationship with him. (Or her, to keep EmmaB happy!)

 

 

MtB

[Ex- Member]

 

 

But the unregistered builder has to pay VAT of all the materials he used to build the boat and can't reclaim it so he will be far more expensive than the VAT registered builder.. The VAT registered builder reclaims all that VAT but charges VAT at 0% on his finished product.

 

MtB

 

That wasn't the point I was making, and I do know the vat threshold limit, it was an example explaining the point that a vat reg builder has to state V.A.T 0% on the invoice.

[Bikervet]

And Alan de Enfield, I don't know anyone in Liechenstein but that did make me laugh! Interesting advice but probably getting into the realms of 'too complicated' for us!

[Ex- Member]

A builder who is not VAT registered can only be building 1 or maybe 2 boats (maybe sailaways) per year to stay below the threshold. by the time he has paid for a shed rental, rates, wages materials I would'nt have thought it was worth being in business.

 

The non vat builder was used as an example, please keep up at the back

[Alan de Enfield]

Bikervet, on 19 May 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

And Alan de Enfield, I don't know anyone in Liechenstein but that did make me laugh! Interesting advice but probably getting into the realms of 'too complicated' for us!

 

It was said with an element of jest- but despite LoneWolf 'scepticism' there are a number of companies that do offer that service.

 

When the US$ was at almost £0.50 a few years ago I investigated importing a big Trawler Yacht from the USA as the purchase price was less than 50% of a simlar boat in Europe. The import company I was working with made me aware of the fact that the boat could come into (say) Greece or Portugal or Spain, (its first point of call in Europe), pay the local VAT and then continue onto the UK where it would 'enter' as VAT paid in Europe.

 

In the end the hassle of rewiring it from 110v getting a CE mark etc etc - and the exchange rate moving significantly I decided to give it a miss.

 

The non vat builder was used as an example, please keep up at the back

 

I was answering post #33 MTB (not your post)

[Ex- Member]

A builder who is not VAT registered can only be building 1 or maybe 2 boats (maybe sailaways) per year to stay below the threshold. by the time he has paid for a shed rental, rates, wages materials I would'nt have thought it was worth being in business.

 

Ahh I see, had you have quoted mike it would have saved me a post

[chazzy]

Some information here.

 

http://www.piperboats.com/images/CB-%20MAY-10.pdf

 

It's a bit dated, was in Canal Boat magazine 2010

[Bettie Boo]

If you're planning on bringing a WB onto the Grand Union south I'd hurry up. At the rate they are arriving soon there won't be room for anymore.

Is it really that bad down south? I appreciate we are currently on a very limited cruising radius; Braunston to either Napton Junction or the first winding hole past Barby moorings. But we've only encountered two other WB in all our outings, both of which we passed with no problem at all. Mind you they were both about the same size as us and not the massive 14ft wide boats.

 

Buy yourself a camper van and save yourself a lot of aggravation, that way you will not upset any boaters trying to navigate bona fide.

 

hmmm not sure what this is meant to imply as we as a WB navigate bona fide just as well as the skinny boats we encounter.

 

And other than the very rare "grumpy ol git, who looks like someone just took a wee in his eye" when we come into his sights. Each day we have been out for a cruise so far, we have pulled over to let skinny boats pass as they tend to go a bit faster than us. After all, if we were able to race down the cut at a whooping 4km I wouldn't want to be stuck behind something with a wide backside crawling along at 3km.

 

Most passing comments we receive are very pleasant or jovial.

 

Please shield your eyes when we approach, we wouldn't want to cause you any aggravation - just because we exist

 

To J R ALSOP (sorry, my phone won't let me highlight posts and reply to individuals) I hope to never aggravate fellow boat users and it would never be my intention to do so. We did consider a camper van but the comforts of a widebeam, the lifestyle and most importantly, the community of the canal boating world suited us more. They're a great bunch, as already proven in this thread .

Don't fret too much about J R ALSOP comments. We've only had two "miserable ol gits" who glared at us as we pass their moored boats without so much as a wave, nod or passing comment. They are few and far between, and without them we might forget how lucky we are to be able to enjoy this lifestyle in the comfort that a WB provides. I tend to give them my biggest smile and put on a fake deep southern US accent and very loudly say "have a nice day y'all".....that really winds them up. They think they have just witnessed a widebeam with a Yank at the stern LMAO

 

ETA - missing word

Edited May 20, 2014 by Bettie Boo

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Ooh, hark at him!

 

So why cant he have a boat, because it's a widebeam, dont you approve?

One wonders what else is on your ban list that means you arent allowed to boat... In your not so very humble opinion.

A pumpout toilet perhaps?

It is a bit of Da Ja vous innit, I will lay Odds on he is a Fisherman !. His comments,& the image in my head of him sat on the bank mumbling does make me smile though, so I actually thank him for that.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[chazzy]

A green thing for the way you deal with "miserable ol gits"

[peterboat]

We have a new build on our moorings that is VAT exempt 60 x 14 Dutch barge looks lovely also their was another in one of the mags the other year that was too. Also Johnie built one last year that was exempt too or so the owners told me. I think you need to talk to wide beam owners and not narrowboat owners

 

Peter

[Bikervet]

We have a new build on our moorings that is VAT exempt 60 x 14 Dutch barge looks lovely also their was another in one of the mags the other year that was too. Also Johnie built one last year that was exempt too or so the owners told me. I think you need to talk to wide beam owners and not narrowboat owners

 

Peter

Hi Peter,

 

Yeah, it looks like a widebeam with minimum dimensions of 60x12ft appears to fit the criteria for a qualifying ship which seemed to be the general consensus at the Crick Boat Show as long as you are a liveaboard.

Been reading through this thread. Lots of interesting points and thank you all for some really interesting facts. Whether widebeam or narrow boat owners, I value all your advice especially with the experience you all have on life on the water. Fingers crossed, that'll be me soon!!!

 

Thanks again!!!

[Iron-Dutchess]

I realise this is an old topic, but just thought I'd mention that I had a 55' x 12' Replica Dutch barge built as a live aboard in 2003, HMRC designated it a qualifying vessel. I paid no VAT on the build. Each time I have had work done since, HMRC was re-consulted and still designated it a qualifying vessel. I just had it completely repainted and sign-written, again no VAT.

 

I should say that I have no other property (house or boat) this may have some bearing on their decision.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Iron-Dutchess

[Bee]

There is a wealth of info about this in the knowledge base section of the Dutch Barge Association website.

[George94]

Very true! I'll be asking the company that deals with all my books about that side of things and see what they say. No words can describe my feelings toward the HMRC, you work hard all your life only to give a fair proportion of it away to the HMRC! As a vet of 15yrs, I've had to pay them nearly a quarter of a million in taxes out of my hard earned money doing 12hr days and out of hours emergency call outs!! Not rich enough to get the freebies and not poor enough to enjoy the benefits. I believe I'm a decent hard working honest person that endeavours to play by the rules, but there are times when you think life is just not fair. We're just going to ring the boat company now. Watch this space!

 

You are not "giving" anything to HMRC, you are simply paying for your share of the NHS, roads, schools, defence, police, museums, sports facilities and other public services which I am sure you are glad to use.

 

Most people in the world would be grateful for the things we get in this country.

I realise this is an old topic, but just thought I'd mention that I had a 55' x 12' Replica Dutch barge built as a live aboard in 2003, HMRC designated it a qualifying vessel. I paid no VAT on the build. Each time I have had work done since, HMRC was re-consulted and still designated it a qualifying vessel. I just had it completely repainted and sign-written, again no VAT.

 

I should say that I have no other property (house or boat) this may have some bearing on their decision.

 

Your other property or lack of it had no bearing on the decision whatsoever.

 

Just look up the Act.

 

ETA: Here's the relevant bit from VAT notice 744C:

 

The intended use of a vessel does not affect qualifying ship status. The only factors to be considered are the gross tonnage, the design of the ship and any subsequent adaptations. If the ship is designed or adapted to be used for recreation or pleasure (such as cruising on rivers or canals), rather than predominantly as permanent residential accommodation, it is not a qualifying ship.

The High Court decided that the supply of the vessel was entitled to zero rating under the terms of UK law where it was designed to be lived in as a permanent home by the owner and, therefore, not desi gned for use as recreation or pleasure - the ability to also use it for cruising or recreation not being the predominant purpose. HMRC believe the judgment does not extend to similar vessels supplied for or used as holiday or seasonal accommodation or other private or commercial activity where the purpose is recreational.

For the purpose of qualifying ship and VAT liability legislation, a residential vessel is not a houseboat (see 2.7) and the VAT treatment is that which applies to qualifying ships and not, for example, houses.

Edited January 5, 2016 by George94