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MunkeyBoy

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In which case, all you can hope is that the seller is honest if they have finance. We bought our boat from a couple who had finance on it, they asked for two cheques, one for Roy Scott Larch for the outstanding finance and one for the seller for the rest. As far as I know there are very few companies who do finance on boats.

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MunkeyBoy, on 13 Apr 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:MunkeyBoy, on 13 Apr 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:MunkeyBoy, on 13 Apr 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

What about the index number?

 

C&RT issue the index number and use it for licensing purposes etc - they would have no idea if anyone had loaned money on it.

 

Does the DVLA know (by registration number) which car has finance on it and from where it is financed ?

When I've registered a 'new' car with DVLA I've never been asked for any Finance information.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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In which case, all you can hope is that the seller is honest if they have finance. We bought our boat from a couple who had finance on it, they asked for two cheques, one for Roy Scott Larch for the outstanding finance and one for the seller for the rest. As far as I know there are very few companies who do finance on boats.

Thanks for the reply.

This is my dilemma,what if the seller is not honest in that sense and leaves the finance company to whistle?

I'm not saying this is the case I am just trying to cover all bases so to speak.

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When I was looking for 2nd hand was advised to see every bit of paperwork to suss out that it was legally theirs, very difficult which is one of the reasons I opted for starting with boat builder and following every step of the way and creating my own paper trail of receipts.

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Thinking about it - If you use the RYA boat buying / selling forms I am sure there is a paragraph where the seller confirms there is no outstanding finance, if this is signed then you are buying in 'good faith' and the boat should not be repossesed.

 

If the seller does not confirm that there is no finance outstanding - then the boat can be repossesed form you.

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Thanks for the reply.

This is my dilemma,what if the seller is not honest in that sense and leaves the finance company to whistle?

I'm not saying this is the case I am just trying to cover all bases so to speak.

Then your boat is at risk, for effectively, the previous owner has stolen it (didn't finish paying for it), and therefore you're in possession of stolen property.

 

 

So you need to make a decent appraisal of the person you're buying the boat from...However, if you buy from a brokerage, then you are covered, and the brokerage (AIUI) takes the loss.

 

So, this may be a good time to remind yourself of the old maxim "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"

 

Just be carefiul and as thorough as you can.

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If there is a marine mortgage, then the boat may be on the Small Ships Register, and have a charge registered against it.

 

If you were to buy mine, as it was bought using an unsecured personal loan, the bank couldn't chase you for it. For all they know, I p155ed the money against the wall while on holiday in the Maldives. ;-)

 

These are the two extremes, but most boats that are bought using a loan may well be on a hire purchase or lease purchase contract, in which case, you need to find out which finance company has a lien on the boat, which is almost impossible if the vendor wants to be economical with the truth as there is no central register. The vendor could get a credit report form experian showing that they have no loans outstanding, but that depends on the vendor's honesty and co-operation, and whether you trust them not to edit the report.

 

Most brokers will have insurance against this happening to any of the boats they have on brokerage.


What about the index number?

That will tell you whether the boat is licenced, but the Data Protection acts will forbid CRT or the EA from telling a third party (i.e. You) who paid the licence fee.

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Hi ya

This is one of those times that Not Paying Cash and actually getting Finance to buy a boat can pay off,

If for example you was to be interested in a boat worth £50.000 and you Had the money,

It's worth considering only Paying £30.000, Getting a Mortgage for the other £20.000 and let the Finance company Do all the 64ths checks. Rest Assured they won't lend any money unless they are happy with the investment.

Then once it's all sorted,and the boats yours

you can always settle the Finance term early, if you wish.

 

Nulife 4-2 is Mca Part 1 registered, so there is proof of ownership and is cheakable. D,V,L,A is always a good starting place for boat checks and a search costs I think under £100.But don't be fooled if someone says yes got SSR Certificate ( a A5 sized laminated certificate, that only lasts 5yrs,& I think it's known as part

3) This is just a Registration Certificate, Not Proof of Ownership or Percentage of boat

owned .

Edited by Paul's Nulife4-2
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Is there a definitive answer to this question?

Bills, letters about licences and things prove provenance (i.e. the person you're dealing with get's written to by CRT, the marina ect so they recognise them as the owner), very few on here are on the small ships register if we're talking your typical cruiser or narrowboat.

I have a friend who bought "in all good faith" a car that was subject to unpaid HP, it was repossessed from him and he lost the cash.

So is it possible can you find out if there is any secured loan made against a boat, cars can be checked at HPI (or whatever it's called) so if they say not then it's OK.

G&F's comment made me think "Then your boat is at risk, for effectively, the previous owner has stolen it (didn't finish paying for it), and therefore you're in possession of stolen property."

Some boats cost tens of thousands is there really no way to protect yourself against being scammed?

What would happen if I bought a boat for £100k then I get threatened with repro for £10k the last owner didn't pay off on his/her loan, do I have to pay his/her bill or lose my boat, bit scary if you can't check it some way.

Luckily I have a Springer so most of you could stick your hand down the back of the sofa and come up with enough cash to buy it so it's not a problem for me right nowsmile.png

K

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I don't know how much real protection you get when buying from a broker. Posters on here say claim that brokers give you peace of mind by making checks, having insurance etc.

 

But maybe that peace of mind is just a nice feeling. Our broker obviously thought so because the paperwork said "it is the buyer's responsibility to check the ownership of the boat", or words to that effect.

 

Our broker was one of the multi-marina brokers. Probably with good lawyers!

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Is there a definitive answer to this question?

Bills, letters about licences and things prove provenance (i.e. the person you're dealing with get's written to by CRT, the marina ect so they recognise them as the owner), very few on here are on the small ships register if we're talking your typical cruiser or narrowboat.

I have a friend who bought "in all good faith" a car that was subject to unpaid HP, it was repossessed from him and he lost the cash.

So is it possible can you find out if there is any secured loan made against a boat, cars can be checked at HPI (or whatever it's called) so if they say not then it's OK.

G&F's comment made me think "Then your boat is at risk, for effectively, the previous owner has stolen it (didn't finish paying for it), and therefore you're in possession of stolen property."

Some boats cost tens of thousands is there really no way to protect yourself against being scammed?

What would happen if I bought a boat for £100k then I get threatened with repro for £10k the last owner didn't pay off on his/her loan, do I have to pay his/her bill or lose my boat, bit scary if you can't check it some way.

Luckily I have a Springer so most of you could stick your hand down the back of the sofa and come up with enough cash to buy it so it's not a problem for me right nowsmile.png

K

Yes, read post 15 again, the one above yours

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Is there a definitive answer to this question?

Bills, letters about licences and things prove provenance (i.e. the person you're dealing with get's written to by CRT, the marina ect so they recognise them as the owner), very few on here are on the small ships register if we're talking your typical cruiser or narrowboat.

I have a friend who bought "in all good faith" a car that was subject to unpaid HP, it was repossessed from him and he lost the cash.

So is it possible can you find out if there is any secured loan made against a boat, cars can be checked at HPI (or whatever it's called) so if they say not then it's OK.

G&F's comment made me think "Then your boat is at risk, for effectively, the previous owner has stolen it (didn't finish paying for it), and therefore you're in possession of stolen property."

Some boats cost tens of thousands is there really no way to protect yourself against being scammed?

What would happen if I bought a boat for £100k then I get threatened with repro for £10k the last owner didn't pay off on his/her loan, do I have to pay his/her bill or lose my boat, bit scary if you can't check it some way.

Luckily I have a Springer so most of you could stick your hand down the back of the sofa and come up with enough cash to buy it so it's not a problem for me right now:)

K

I though standard practise was to fill in a Bill of Sale where they do have to sign a declaration stating that there are no loans outstanding on the vessel? Google MCA bill of sale. Marine mortgage brokers that we used got the man who sold us our boat to fill one in.

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C&RT issue the index number and use it for licensing purposes etc - they would have no idea if anyone had loaned money on it.

 

Does the DVLA know (by registration number) which car has finance on it and from where it is financed ?

When I've registered a 'new' car with DVLA I've never been asked for any Finance information.

It needs to be kept in mind that with regard to cars the registered keeper of a car can be different to the owner.

 

Often the registered keeper will be an individual but the owner may be a company, a finance company or another commercial undertaking.

 

The DVLA as far as I know are only interested in the registered keeper and have no interest or record of who owns a vehicle.

So what would happen if I bought a boat off someone and they owned money on it with the bank?

Can the bank come and take it off me if that were the case or are there precautions I could take just in case?

thanks.

If the boat was bought with a personal loan then normally these are not secured on the boat and in most circumstances the boat could not be taken off you.

 

However if the boat was purchased using finance secured on the boat then yes if the loan is defaulted on ultimately the person defaulting on the loan could have the boat repossessed. If they have sold it on to someone else ie you, then you are at risk of losing the boat. If they use the money to immediately settle any finance you should be OK, even better if they have told the finance co. what they are doing.

 

If you lost the boat you would have redress against the seller, but if they haven't got sufficient resources suing them may be a pointless exercise and you could end up seriously out of pocket.

 

Because there is not an HPI equivalent for boats then yes buying a boat privately does carry more risk than it does a car, not least also because of the amounts involved. It comes down to trust at the end of the day.

 

You could try a call to RoyScot larch to see if they will divulge the information (not sure they will TBH) they are currently just about the only company offering finance on narrowboats that is secured on the actual boat. Barclays use to too so any loan secured on the boat some time in the past may have been got from them instead.

 

Buying through a reputable broker reduces the risk but I hesitate to say eliminates it all together.

Edited by The Dog House
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Point 1, I would like to see photos of the sellers building / using the boat for a time to at least prove possession of the thing.

Point 2, the important one, is there money owing on it, I don`t think there is any way to know, a determined person can conceal it. If they have an address and are nice middle class people at least you have a chance to use the law to get your money back, lovely prospect. If however they are from the lower orders and drive off in a clapped out old van with your money you are stuffed. You just might get a clue from any survey that could have been done for a finance company but apart from that ..... ? It`s a bad situation that `buyer beware` can`t help you with.

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With the boat we've just bought we have a Bill of Sale. In it, it is stated that the transferor has the power to transfer (sell) the "premises hereinbefore expressed" (ie. mentioned above, the description of the boat), and that the same are free from encumbrances (ie. no outstanding debts).

A loan had been taken out with RoyScotLarch and a copy (for us) of a letter from them (to the seller) was made. In this, it states: "We confirm that we have no financial interest in this vessel and we enclose herewith the title papers for your boat. You should keep these, together with this letter, as evidence of your ownership of the boat."

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With the boat we've just bought we have a Bill of Sale. In it, it is stated that the transferor has the power to transfer (sell) the "premises hereinbefore expressed" (ie. mentioned above, the description of the boat), and that the same are free from encumbrances (ie. no outstanding debts).

A loan had been taken out with RoyScotLarch and a copy (for us) of a letter from them (to the seller) was made. In this, it states: "We confirm that we have no financial interest in this vessel and we enclose herewith the title papers for your boat. You should keep these, together with this letter, as evidence of your ownership of the boat."

Indeed that is exactly how it should work, the problems come when somebody unscrupulous sells a boat that still has outstanding finance secured on it and doesn't settle the finance.

 

Your seller was clearly a 'good egg', and most are but there will always be some chancer willing to try it on.

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Thinking about it - If you use the RYA boat buying / selling forms I am sure there is a paragraph where the seller confirms there is no outstanding finance, if this is signed then you are buying in 'good faith' and the boat should not be repossesed.

 

If the seller does not confirm that there is no finance outstanding - then the boat can be repossesed form you.

 

I'm afraid that this is entirely incorrect.

 

Buying stolen goods "in good faith" does not alter the fact that they are stolen goods. The seller doesn't own the goods, and it is a clear principle of the law that you cannot give better title to goods than you yourself have.

 

This is the exact problem that HPI checks on cars solves. Unfortunately the same does not exist for boats.

 

It could (particularly as there is really only one provider of secured finance on boats)

 

Actually, that does give you an effective way of checking. Never buy for all cash. Buy with a 10% Marine Mortgage from RSL, then pay it off immediately.

 

RSL might just notice that you are buying a boat that has outstanding finance.

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