looking for a solicitor to over seeing buying process - any suggestions

[Bettie Boo]

Hi All,

 

newbie's here. We are looking at buying our first Canal Boat, sorry to all you traditionalist's, but we're looking at a wide beam in the vicinity of £60 - £75K. All 3 of the boats we are currently interested in are through a private sales rather than brokerage firms.

 

We've done a fair amount of research, including picking up some Very valuable tips from this forum. Any boat we "think" is right for us; we plan on having a full pre-purchase survey done. We understand it is quite a common practice to offer a deposit and of course we would need this to be fully refundable based on the out come of the survey if there are say any repairs needed over an agreed amount. We were thinking anything over £2K, but not including blackening and anodes as we appreciate these need to be done on a fairly regular basis anyway, nor would it include any cosmetic improvements we would want to make to the interior.

 

With all that said, we've read some of the nightmare stories of people loosing their deposits; and feel we would like the services of an experienced solicitor to draw up the deposit agreement and the final sale as well.

 

Any suggestions, or even ones to avoid would be most appreciated.

 

Ta

 

Betty~

[mrsmelly]

Hi All,

 

newbie's here. We are looking at buying our first Canal Boat, sorry to all you traditionalist's, but we're looking at a wide beam in the vicinity of £60 - £75K. All 3 of the boats we are currently interested in are through a private sales rather than brokerage firms.

 

We've done a fair amount of research, including picking up some Very valuable tips from this forum. Any boat we "think" is right for us; we plan on having a full pre-purchase survey done. We understand it is quite a common practice to offer a deposit and of course we would need this to be fully refundable based on the out come of the survey if there are say any repairs needed over an agreed amount. We were thinking anything over £2K, but not including blackening and anodes as we appreciate these need to be done on a fairly regular basis anyway, nor would it include any cosmetic improvements we would want to make to the interior.

 

With all that said, we've read some of the nightmare stories of people loosing their deposits; and feel we would like the services of an experienced solicitor to draw up the deposit agreement and the final sale as well.

 

Any suggestions, or even ones to avoid would be most appreciated.

 

Ta

 

Betty~

Hi Betty

 

Wide beam boats are far more traditional than narrow beam. Narrow beam are big time newbies and are peculiar to the uk and only been around for 200 odd years or so. Worldwide and indeed uk wider boats have been around for thousands of years.

 

Tim

[Stilllearning]

If you have used a solicitor in the past, perhaps for house selling, and liked him/her, why not use them ?

[GUMPY]

We bought ours privately last year all done on a handshake and gentlemans agreement.

No deposit paid kept him waiting a couple of months until we had sold our previous boat.

Had three river trials in that time

Took boat down for survey on one weekend, agreed price (43k), paid in full via bax next day, craned boat onto truck and it was on our moorings six hours later.

Only paperwork was a MCA transfer of ownership doc.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/msf_4705_bill_of_sale_rev_0913.pdf

Caveat is that I do know what to look for in a boat.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Loddon

[Ray T]

If you "Google" Maritime Solicitors UK - take your pick.

 

We didn't use one when we bought our boat from a broker as the boat had a lovely paperwork trail.

 

Ps welcome from a fellow Coventrian.

[Burgiesburnin]

There is no real need to pay a deposit that is refundable or not.

If you like ascertain boat then you can agree with the seller that you will buy it subject to a satisfactory survey.

The definition of satisfactory could be using your 2 k "problem" as the benchmark. You could even agree that the seller pays for the survey or that he pays for any repairs that become apparent as a result f the survey.

If you really like the boat then you could further agree that you will pay X amount for it less the costs of any "defects" which the survey identifies.

Please consider that until you part with your money then you have not lost anything except for your time.

Get a survey, study it along with the examiner, adjust your offer if need be and make the offer. If its not accepted and you don't feel happy then walk away and start again on another boat.

[Bobbybass]

Surveyors...are worth a 'pinch of salt'.

There survey is only valid 'on the day'..

A solictor..?

Can't see it myself..?

It is really ...'handshake'...trust to luck..

 

A boat is a movable asset...

There is no guarantee...it is OK one day....not the next...

 

As far as I can see....there is no guarantee...

There is no security...

 

Don't try and be secure...it doesn't exist in boating...

 

See one...

Buy it..

Cross fingers...

Hopefully....have a great time...

Edited November 9, 2013 by Bobbybass

[Stilllearning]

Surveyors...are worth a 'pinch of salt'.

There survey is only valid 'on the day'..

A solictor..?

Can't see it myself..?

It is really ...'handshake'...trust to luck..

 

A boat is a movable asset...

There is no guarantee...it is OK one day....not the next...

 

As far as I can see....there is no guarantee...

There is no security...

 

Don't try and be secure...it doesn't exist in boating...

 

See one...

Buy it..

Cross fingers...

Hopefully....have a great time...

Well that is about as pessimistic and negative a view of boat buying as I have ever seen ; through a good surveyor there is a lot of security and confidence.

[mrsmelly]

Well that is about as pessimistic and negative a view of boat buying as I have ever seen ; through a good surveyor there is a lot of security and confidence.

 

Hi

 

Bobbybass has it about spot on. A survey will be so ambiguous as to be worthless ( Go and read a few, I have ) I have bought all my boats on handshakes with cash and never had a problem. Solicitors and the like are for house purchases and make everything a pain in the preverbial butt we can well do without them on the boating circuit.

There was a boat in this yard last week bought on the say so of a " Good surveyor " it was a pile of poo and the owner is struggling like hell to get any redress, most surveyors have lost their way and should be politicians who as we all know couldnt even lie straight in bed!

 

Tim

[Stilllearning]

Some surveys are totally useless, I agree, others are very good. As the recipient of one of each , I do know a bit about it.

However, they are in general much better than nothing, and for a first time buyer with little or no knowledge, what else is one supposed to do? Not many people have sufficiently experienced friends who feel qualified to say OK spend a big wodge of hard-earned cash on this or that boat.

So, to go back to Bettie Boo's question, a solicitor might be a way to protect oneself, along with a surveyor.

[Bobbybass]

 

Hi

 

Bobbybass has it about spot on. A survey will be so ambiguous as to be worthless ( Go and read a few, I have ) I have bought all my boats on handshakes with cash and never had a problem. Solicitors and the like are for house purchases and make everything a pain in the preverbial butt we can well do without them on the boating circuit.

There was a boat in this yard last week bought on the say so of a " Good surveyor " it was a pile of poo and the owner is struggling like hell to get any redress, most surveyors have lost their way and should be politicians who as we all know couldnt even lie straight in bed!

 

Tim

 

Thanks Mr Smelly.

 

We all like to be secure...but from my experience in boating...it's a total 'buyer beware'.

 

Like everone..I like to be secure....but my various surveyor experience..tells me that I will only go for a hull survey in future...and take any perspective boat out for a run...and do my best to find any faults. Not sure...that a surveyor would do better than that.?

 

I bought a boat a few years back...and the stern tube unscrewed in the second week...and left a 2 inch hole in the boat and a nearly sank. Caused by missing bolts...but a 'top surveyor'..mentioned on these forums..told me that his survey was 'on the day'..and he wasn't liable.

 

Getting a solicitor involved..?

Can't see it myself...as they have little or no boat experience...

Not sure they would get to grips with the intricacies of boats being a movable asset..

 

The OP is really looking for assurance...so in the spirit of that :

Maybe buy from a broker....mainly to handle the money.

 

Get a hull survey.

Take a very knowledable mate...or even....a kind person from this forum...to go with you...

 

Then...take a leap of faith...

[MtB]

Some surveys are totally useless, I agree, others are very good. As the recipient of one of each , I do know a bit about it.

However, they are in general much better than nothing, and for a first time buyer with little or no knowledge, what else is one supposed to do? Not many people have sufficiently experienced friends who feel qualified to say OK spend a big wodge of hard-earned cash on this or that boat.

So, to go back to Bettie Boo's question, a solicitor might be a way to protect oneself, along with a surveyor.

 

Well there appear to be three options to me:

 

1) Don't buy a boat

 

2) Rely on the advice of a surveyor

 

3) Get yourself educated enough to make a decision yourself

 

 

3 seems best to me but most newbies are not willing/able to, so are restricted to 1 & 2.

 

MtB

[Bobbybass]

 

Well there appear to be three options to me:

 

1) Don't buy a boat

 

2) Rely on the advice of a surveyor

 

3) Get yourself educated enough to make a decision yourself

 

 

3 seems best to me but most newbies are not willing/able to, so are restricted to 1 & 2.

 

MtB

 

Hi Mr Boiler.

 

Yup..its tough if you are unsure.

 

As I have said...I am 'sore' having found early on..that my £700 survey from a top rated surveyor..carried no guarantee at all....

You are also worried about handing such huge amounts of cash about....with little 'come back'.

 

Problem is..there seems little alternative.

 

I guess..money wise.....if you deal with a broker...at least you may have some proof you handed money over.

The money 'angle' can be a nightmare whatever you do. Even if you pay over cash to a fairly reputable builder...they may go bust...as has been found in the past.

 

Not sure...a solicitor may end up like my 'fabled' surveyor..?

If it all went wrong..they have some kind of 'get out of jail' card...that absolves them of liability.

If you think about it...they probably have !.

It would all be 'hunky dory'...and would cost you lots of dosh..and if it was OK..they would say "that's because you used us"...but if it went pear shaped....there would be some small print.

 

The more I think about it...the more I think...it's down to what you said...Mr Boiler...

That you buy a boat...or you don't.

 

Close your eyes and jump...or don't...

[DaveGood]

Good evening all,

 

I'm the hubby that Betty refers too.

 

I have no particular love for lawyers and have a nice line in jokes at their expense. I'm also aware that Surveyors have a less then stellar reputation.

 

But is the consensus here actually that I hand over 60 to 70 thousand to some random bloke who claims to have a boat for sale and simply hope for the best?

 

It's all very well to say check previous bill of sale and reciepts etc. But how do I know whatever I'm shown hasn't been cooked up useing photshop and a cheap pc printer?

 

I assume an experienced solicitor would know and that's why Betty is asking if any one here knows of a decent solicitor.

 

Dave

[twooh10]

Hello Dave,

I'm afraid the reason that people haven't been very helpful on the subject of solicitors so far is that it is really not common to use them in boat purchases.

I never have, so I'm not much help either!

[ditchcrawler]

A solicitor can do no more than you can to check the person selling the boat owns it. You would probably get a much better idea yourself talking to the vendor, what he has had done to the boat, who serviced it etc than a solicitor would from a paper trail.

[DaveGood]

Thanks twooh10,

 

Fair play and a good answer. Trust me, I do not want to involve lawyers in my life if I can avoid it. But surely someone here has required the services of a solicitor? All we are looking for is a name to either approach or avoid.

 

 

Dave

[mrsmelly]

Good evening all,

 

I'm the hubby that Betty refers too.

 

I have no particular love for lawyers and have a nice line in jokes at their expense. I'm also aware that Surveyors have a less then stellar reputation.

 

But is the consensus here actually that I hand over 60 to 70 thousand to some random bloke who claims to have a boat for sale and simply hope for the best?

 

It's all very well to say check previous bill of sale and reciepts etc. But how do I know whatever I'm shown hasn't been cooked up useing photshop and a cheap pc printer?

 

I assume an experienced solicitor would know and that's why Betty is asking if any one here knows of a decent solicitor.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

We all get your point and if you want to use a solicitor then fine, thats your choice. The facts are I personaly am happy to say that with many boats out there for sale there simply is no paper chain. Boats unlike say cars with v5s and mots etc all documented and houses with mortgage paperwork and deeds etc just have no requirement to have any such paperwork. This makes for a more relaxed environment for all concerned. I think you will find that even with all the paperwork involved and solicitors etc there are far more bent deals done with houses and cars by percentage than ever there are with boats.

 

Tim

[DaveGood]

Fair enough ditch crawler, the difference is that if I end up handing over my life savings to some conman who makes off with it, I can hold the solicitor responsible. I've already had dealings with someone who insisted that a survey was not neccessary and I should simply hand him 70k.

 

Dave

[Grace and Favour]

Fair enough ditch crawler, the difference is that if I end up handing over my life savings to some conman who makes off with it, I can hold the solicitor responsible. I've already had dealings with someone who insisted that a survey was not neccessary and I should simply hand him 70k.

 

Dave

I fully understand your concern . . . . (although I have to say I've not used a solicitor as we bought our craft new from the builder - - and I do not know anyone whom has used a legal beagle for a boat purchase.

 

If you don't get a name suggested by a forum member - maybe you could contact a couple of the industry's leading insurers, (e.g. Collidge & Partners) and ask if they could recommend a Solicitor (that's been used in boat purchase) - they would be likely to know of a few

[Bettie Boo]

Hi guys,

 

Wow didn't realize lawyers would be such a hot topic, I kind of feel like I asked for everyone's thought's and views about which type of loo they felt would be the best to go with. (not to worry, we've already decided that one)

 

Really though, I do appreciate receiving everyone's options on using or not using a solicitor to over see the refundable deposit & the final bill of sale. After having one fairly difficult encounter with a private seller, as Dave has mentioned; that's when we thought it best to seek the advice and guidance of a experienced marine solicitor before entering into any further negations with private sellers. Unfortunately the 3 boats we are viewing this coming week are mostly with private sellers as well.

 

I appreciate not everyone currently selling a boat is trying to rip people off, but I'm sure most of you would agree there are a few. My fear is I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

MtB - I love your posts and sense of humour, and whole heartedly agree with your 3 points. 4 months ago, I couldn't tell you the difference between a car battery or a deep cell battery, or why turning the water off while you brush your teeth would be so important, never mind what an anode was. We've had a Very steep learning curve so far on our journey and I understand we have a long way to go yet. Ideally we would like to be on our boat and starting our new life before the end of January and I just don't have the confidence that we will be able to educate ourselves enough to understand all the pitfalls to look out for at the buying stage. Hence we are willing to seek some expert advice, even if it is only good for the day we receive it or following a paper trail, or even safeguarding a deposit if we find ourselves in that situation.

 

The funny thing is, I've spent more time researching regulations, living aboard costs, CaRT rules & regulations, multi fuel stoves, 12v appliances, helmsman courses, fire extinguisher / fire blanket requirements, blackening, surveyors, traditional / semi trad / cruiser sterns, wide beam vs narrow (whichever is the most authentic), wood vs smokeless fuel, the god forsaken arguments about types of loos, down to how much power an iron will suck out of the system; than I would have if I was still working full time at my last job and I was averaging around 50 hours a week there. Please don't get me wrong, I'm in no way complaining, I have fully enjoyed it. Really the only frustrating bit I've found so far is trying to get a straight answer out of CaRT regarding CCer's and the regulations about 14 day moving process in the winter when froze in somewhere.

 

Grace & Favour - great idea, I'll give that a try on Monday when their offices reopen.

 

Thanks again all for the input - much appreciated

 

Betty~

[Bobbybass]

Trouble is...as has been said...there isn't a paper trail.

There is very little to say who owns a boat...and whether they are entitled to sell it.

There is no 'registration of owners'.

 

If you employ a solicitor...there isn't much more that they could do to establish this. As such...I'm not sure that if it all went 'pear shaped'..you would have recourse from the solictor if they just acted on the limited facts available. The solicitor isn't going to guarantee a 'deal' where they have no hard facts...neither could you sue them for acting in limited capacity. If you find one..I suggest that you get it 'in writing' that they will indemnify you for loss of 'dosh'...I doubt this will be the case.

I sold my last boat...and showed my own bill of sale from when I bought it..but I could easily have printed it myself as nobody checked it was true.

 

On these forums..people have handed over cash to established boat builders...who have then gone bust...and even then they have little recourse. They have also ploughed cash into shared schemes (Ownerships) and lost out.

They have given money for dodgy marinas(no names)...and been screwed.

 

I'm afraid a lot of the business is..hand over cash ..handshake..trust to luck...

[dor]

Good evening all,

 

I'm the hubby that Betty refers too.

 

I have no particular love for lawyers and have a nice line in jokes at their expense. I'm also aware that Surveyors have a less then stellar reputation.

 

But is the consensus here actually that I hand over 60 to 70 thousand to some random bloke who claims to have a boat for sale and simply hope for the best?

 

It's all very well to say check previous bill of sale and reciepts etc. But how do I know whatever I'm shown hasn't been cooked up useing photshop and a cheap pc printer?

 

I assume an experienced solicitor would know and that's why Betty is asking if any one here knows of a decent solicitor.

 

Dave

Is there any reason why you are only looking at boats for sale privately? Some brokers have a bad reputation but the majority are ok, and they carry the risk for you. It is the broker's job to check ownership etc; you pay the money to the broker so if things turn out not to be as stated then you have redress against them.

[GUMPY]

The problem is that there is no legal paper trail for an inland boat, the best you can hope for is a series of MCA bills of sale/transfer as I mentioned earlier. Allthough I have several from previous sales of my present boat there is no law that says I have to pass them on. This will mean that any solicitor will have no idea how to trace ownership of a boat.

In reality its up to you to satisfy yourself that the person selling the boat has legal right to do so, without a series of MCA bills of sale about the only thing you can do is ask to look at previous licence/mooring documentation, invoices for work done and any other documentation that the seller may have.

Do not trust SSR registration as that is no proof, I was still registered owner for a boat I sold 3 years ago because I forgot to cancel.

 

A possibility is that you may find a broker to handle the sale for a fee, but even then I'm not sure if you have any comeback if it goes pear shaped.

[Guest]

Is there any reason why you are only looking at boats for sale privately? Some brokers have a bad reputation but the majority are ok, and they carry the risk for you. It is the broker's job to check ownership etc; you pay the money to the broker so if things turn out not to be as stated then you have redress against them.

 

My thoughts too - plus it has the advantage the seller pays the associated fees.

 

With the OP's suggestion they will pay them.

 

I too would say if you are not confident that you can establish the ownership of a boat or you fear other future legal issues then use a (reputable!) broker.