Rights And Wrong Of History

[Heartland]

It is often the case that more than one interpretation is placed on our canal history. I was recently looking at the history of the Lock Flight at Johnsons Hillock on the modern Leeds & Liverpool Canal, which I am sure, Pluto, is most conversant with. These locks were built for the Lancaster Canal and remained their property until the lease to the LLC. All 7 locks are listed but English Heritage appear to neglect their former ownership.

 

It is a example of how ownership changed on our waterways.

 

With the River Tame Aqueduct opposite Portland Basin, Ashton, there is a different issue, Some accounts that list this 3-arch structure as part of the Peak Forest. whilst a more accurate description would place it as an Ashton Canal aqueduct. English Heritage also appears not to be conversant with such a possibility.

 

 

Ray Shill

[Pluto]

English Heritage listings for industrial sites are notoriously poor, and I have been trying to get some of the L&LC ones changed for years, with no success, despite quoting archival sources. I also wrote a report on South Dock Bridge, Goole, some years ago where the listing description appeared to be for the previous bridge, demolished around 80 years previously.

[mayalld]

With the River Tame Aqueduct opposite Portland Basin, Ashton, there is a different issue, Some accounts that list this 3-arch structure as part of the Peak Forest. whilst a more accurate description would place it as an Ashton Canal aqueduct. English Heritage also appears not to be conversant with such a possibility.

 

Ah, sombody else who knows this!

 

This is, of course, one of those situations where the relative dominance of a feature leads to it assuming a greater role.

 

Dukinfield Junction (the junction beteeen the Peak Forest and Ashton Canals) is, properly, an end-on junction between an unnamed branch of the Ashton Canal. Most people locally have heard of Portland Basin, but not of Dukinfield Junction, and there is a tendency to move Dukinfield Junction to be co-located with Portland Basin.

 

Canalplan AC does this, but Wikipedia has it right.

 

Before the HNC re-opened, many people locally actually thought that Portland Basin was a junction between 3 canals.

[Pluto]

 

Ah, sombody else who knows this!

 

This is, of course, one of those situations where the relative dominance of a feature leads to it assuming a greater role.

 

Dukinfield Junction (the junction beteeen the Peak Forest and Ashton Canals) is, properly, an end-on junction between an unnamed branch of the Ashton Canal. Most people locally have heard of Portland Basin, but not of Dukinfield Junction, and there is a tendency to move Dukinfield Junction to be co-located with Portland Basin.

 

Canalplan AC does this, but Wikipedia has it right.

 

Before the HNC re-opened, many people locally actually thought that Portland Basin was a junction between 3 canals.

Although the Ashton built the aqueduct, the idea that the junction between the canals was at Portland Basin developed around the time the M&SLR took the canals over. The 1889 railway survey of the Peak Forest suggests that the Peak Forest land came to the Marple side of the bridge over the canal at the junction, the change from Ashton to Peak Forest for the aqueduct probably done to make control of maintenance easier. All the old maps I have show the Ashton as passing beyond the junction with the Peak Forest, so anyone suggesting that the three canals met at Portland Basin is uninformed.

[mayalld]

Although the Ashton built the aqueduct, the idea that the junction between the canals was at Portland Basin developed around the time the M&SLR took the canals over. The 1889 railway survey of the Peak Forest suggests that the Peak Forest land came to the Marple side of the bridge over the canal at the junction, the change from Ashton to Peak Forest for the aqueduct probably done to make control of maintenance easier. All the old maps I have show the Ashton as passing beyond the junction with the Peak Forest, so anyone suggesting that the three canals met at Portland Basin is uninformed.

 

It was a view that reflected the reality on the ground.

 

From 1974 to around 1994 (the opening of the Cheshire Ring until the first section of the HNC became navigable), the stretch from Portland Basin to Ashton Junction was a dead end, into which people didn't venture, and which wasn't dredged. Because that was the effective boundary between active canal and dereliction the last bit of the Ashton tended to be lumped in with the Huddersfield.

[bag 'o' bones]

 

Ah, sombody else who knows this!

 

This is, of course, one of those situations where the relative dominance of a feature leads to it assuming a greater role.

 

Dukinfield Junction (the junction beteeen the Peak Forest and Ashton Canals) is, properly, an end-on junction between an unnamed branch of the Ashton Canal. Most people locally have heard of Portland Basin, but not of Dukinfield Junction, and there is a tendency to move Dukinfield Junction to be co-located with Portland Basin.

 

Canalplan AC does this, but Wikipedia has it right.

 

Before the HNC re-opened, many people locally actually thought that Portland Basin was a junction between 3 canals.

 

'Wikipedia has it right' is an interesting point. Despite many who believe that Wikipedia is an untrustworthy source, it has been proven by Which? magazine (amongst others) as being the most accurate when compared with other encyclopaedias.

 

Universities hate it (officially), using the excuse that you cannot be sure if the sources are accurate. However, having used Wikipedia numerous times during research for essay writing, I have found it invaluable as a starting point. Not that you would reference Wikipedia directly, but it certainly makes for an excellent way of finding obscure papers that are rarely quoted in the main stream; particularly those written in other languages.

 

I've come to the conclusion that university lecturers hate it - well the old school at least - because it saves so much time when researching!

 

Back to the OP's title, there is no such thing as 'rights and wrong of history' its only ever 'right' until some one comes along and presents new evidence that challenges the 'official' account.

 

Best guess would be a better description something that Wikipedia is better at than most because it is instantly updatable (and policed) by everyone and does not require waiting for a reprint, or having to jump through lots of bureaucratic hoops to get the point across.

[Heartland]

I believe the chief complaint with Wikepedia is that entries can be changed, yet the page entries often quote accurate sources and contributors include transport researchers and so balanced histories are produced, which are improved, and honed, as new research is made.

 

Ray Shill

[Pluto]

I only treat Wikepedia as an aid-memoire, rather than a source, and I would distrust much of what is written. After all, what good researcher has got time to write up things there, when there are better places to address those with similar interests. I haven't even looked at the L&LC pages, despite probably knowing more about the canal's history than anyone living - though I hasten to say I only know a small amount. You are only beginning to know a subject when you know how little you know.

[StephenA]

 

It was a view that reflected the reality on the ground.

 

From 1974 to around 1994 (the opening of the Cheshire Ring until the first section of the HNC became navigable), the stretch from Portland Basin to Ashton Junction was a dead end, into which people didn't venture, and which wasn't dredged. Because that was the effective boundary between active canal and dereliction the last bit of the Ashton tended to be lumped in with the Huddersfield.

 

Also if you think of road junctions they are usually marked by specific structures : an island, a roundabout, a t junction. So people will just assume that when you talk about the junction of two canals they will think of a similar structure and not just a change of name - which is basicallly what you have here.

[magpie patrick]

I went on the two tunnels trip through Dudley and Netherton last Saturday, I'm still trying to get my head round who built what at Dudley Tunnel, was part of it Lord Dudley's Canal? Did Lord Dudley's canal have a bit that is not now part of the through route? Was there really a stop lock part way through at one time?

 

These errors that Ray Shill describes are often the result of careless and incomplete research, and also of drawing inferences that should not be drawn. For example, it is often stated as fact that there is no navigation authority on the River Avon between the Kennet and Avon Canal and Pulteney Bridge, this may be true but is unlikely, and the statement is based on the fact that the 1968 Transport Act defined the Avon from Hanham to the entrance of the K and A as Cruiseway, and in 2010 the Kennet and Avon was designated a Cruiseway. A more likely outcome if the length above the junction is still a remainder waterway, as there is little doubt the original Avon Navigation extended to Pulteney Mill (Pulteney Bridge hadn't been built then).

 

One of the most bizarre statements I heard was from someone who claimed to have found the site of the fourth Caisson Lock on the Somerset Coal Canal. As each proposed lock had a fall of 48 feet, and the overall fall of the canal is around 144 feet, we wondered if this chaps next revelation was going to be finding the long lost junction with the River Avon at Limpley Stoke...

Pluto, I think you are being a little unfair on yourself and other historians regarding the amount that you or they know, as surely the definition of "everything" in history depends on the level of detail: the smaller the detail searched for, the more that is not yet known?

[luctor et emergo]

Perhaps that caisson lock is part of the abandoned attempt to go straight to Bath, via the Odd Down Arm, to by-pass the K&A altogether?

[Heartland]

^{I believe Patrick is right, Mike Clarke is acknowledged authority on the LLC.}

 

^{On the Dudley Canal Tunnel observation. Yes there was a stop lock at the Tipton End of the tunnel group. The private Lord Wards branch was part of the history that led to the first development of the limestone mines and colliery on this branch. Building the canal tunnel for the Dudley Canal Co was also part of that complex history. As to Netherton Tunnel, it is a cause celebre for me to raise the profile of the engineer, James Walker.}

 

^{Ray Shill}

[billh]

 

 

With the River Tame Aqueduct opposite Portland Basin, Ashton, there is a different issue, Some accounts that list this 3-arch structure as part of the Peak Forest. whilst a more accurate description would place it as an Ashton Canal aqueduct. English Heritage also appears not to be conversant with such a possibility.

 

 

Ray Shill

I have just referred to a copy of the 1888 distance tables for the Ashton Canal. The (Dukinfield) Junction with the Peak Forest is is stated as "South End of aqueduct over River Tame ( 2chains from main line)"

I think I remember reading that the Peak Forest Canal Co and the Ashton Canal Co. became one organisation either during construction or just after completion of the two canals so the actual junction hasn't mattered much for the last 200 years. The Tame Aqueduct marks the borders of Cheshire and Lancashire

Bill

[Pluto]

 

Pluto, I think you are being a little unfair on yourself and other historians regarding the amount that you or they know, as surely the definition of "everything" in history depends on the level of detail: the smaller the detail searched for, the more that is not yet known?

All I was trying to say is that experts don't know everything, but will have a good idea about the type of information which they are missing. All research is confined by the researchers perceptions and experience. For example, as someone who began working life as an apprentice and then undertook much practical work on historic engineering, I will have a different view of the interpretation of historical information to many academics or those with university education who have little or no practical experience.

[Heartland]

I understand that the Ashton Canal branch over the Aqueduct was only 40 yards. The IWA guide (Lewis Edwards) 1950 still marks the junction between the Ashton and Peak Forest as Dukinfield Junction.

 

Ray Shill

[magpie patrick]

Bradshaw 1904 gives the junction as Dukinfield Junction, but gives no indication that this is not where the T junction at the north end of the aqueduct is. There is no mention of an arm to reach the Peak Forest. That said, such minutiae wasn't really Bradshaw's bag, giving as it does "the most ordinary information concerning places to which cargoes can be sent..." and also the now well worn caveat about every care having been taken over accuracy but no liability accepted for errors, in other words Rodolph De Salis recognised his own book could be wrong on occasion.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind the source from which one draws an inference, general signage is informative and often lacking pin point precision. For those who cross either Severn road Bridge, do you really think the boundary between England and Wales is several hundred metres inland with the carriageway you are on belonging to the country you are leaving?

 

Another fruitcake on the coal canal (do all canal societies attract such people) was convinced that the lower pound from Dundas to Combe Hay had been lowered six feet five inches at one point because one book erroneously gives the stop-lock as 7' not 7"...

[MartinClark]

All the old maps I have show the Ashton as passing beyond the junction with the Peak Forest, so anyone suggesting that the three canals met at Portland Basin is uninformed.

 

A former editor of a popular waterways magazine insists that this is so and becomes annoyed with me if I try to correct him. Also, articles in that magazine usually perpetuate the misinformed claim that the Huddersfield Narrow starts at Portland Basin.

 

The exact point where the canals meet may seem a pedantic point but:

1) There are large black and white signs just below Whitelands Bridge saying "Welcome to the Ashton Canal" and "Welcome to the Huddersfield Narrow Canal".

2) The Ashton Canal and the Huddersfield Canal were in the ownership of different railway companies, so there would always have been a clear distinction.

3) The numbering of the bridges between Portland Basin and Whitelands clearly indicates that this section is counted as part of the Ashton Canal.

 

Also if you think of road junctions they are usually marked by specific structures : an island, a roundabout, a t junction. So people will just assume that when you talk about the junction of two canals they will think of a similar structure and not just a change of name - which is basicallly what you have here.

 

But the change from the Ashton to the HNC is marked by structures. After three miles of level Ashton Canal, the start of the HNC is marked by a bridge and a lock.

 

Edited August 8, 2013 by MartinClark

[MartinClark]

I have just referred to a copy of the 1888 distance tables for the Ashton Canal. The (Dukinfield) Junction with the Peak Forest is is stated as "South End of aqueduct over River Tame ( 2chains from main line)"

 

Indeed and there is a "zero" milestone against the southern end of the aqueduct parapet to mark the historic official start of the Peak Forest Canal.

 

 

(N.B. it's the stone in front of the parapet, just left of centre, not the isolated post to the left!)

[Pluto]

The official survey of the Huddersfield done by the L&NWR shows the canal starting at the Whitelands road bridge.

 

[MartinClark]

Further to the discussion about whether or not Dukinfield Junction is at Portland Basin, I see that the large scale 1875 map clearly names the junction at Portland Basin as "Ashton Junction".

Edited August 15, 2013 by MartinClark

[magpie patrick]

So where is Dukinfield Junction according to that map?

[Derek R.]

Looks like Dukinfield Junction is that South of the Aqueduct and located close by Dukinfield Mill, while the junction North of the aqueduct appears as Ashton Junction following the name of the warehouse, but that due to the proximity to Portland Street South, may have become known as Portland Basin. However, the 'marina' - albeit a more recent development I'm sure - at the end of the arm from Dukinfield Junction has called itself 'Portland Basin Marina'. That might be merely a modern contrivance, but what then is the name of the basin just West of Whitelands bridge and which is accessed from Lower Wharf St.?

[Hairy-Neil]

Once something is in written text it's most difficult to change.

 

My own experience is on the Sleaford Navigation. The third lock down has a surviving toll office. I first walked the canal around 30 years ago as a result of an article in Waterways World, and noted that said toll house was said to be octagonal when in fact it is hexagonal. Every article and leaflet I've seen on the navigation since has continued the error, including Wikipedia.

 

I've just edited it (wikipedia), I wonder how long my edit will survive...

 

Even the Sleaford Navigation Trust gets it wrong on their own website...

 

http://www.sleafordnavigation.co.uk/Walk%202%20revised.pdf

Edited August 15, 2013 by Hairy-Neil

[Heartland]

Thanks to Martin Clark, for the image of the milestone that marks the start of the Peak Forest at Dukinfield.

 

There are many cases of canal history that deserve clarification and correction, and quite often the answers are there and sometimes these answers are available and at other times more difficult to extract.

 

Ray Shill

[magpie patrick]

Looks like Dukinfield Junction is that South of the Aqueduct and located close by Dukinfield Mill, while the junction North of the aqueduct appears as Ashton Junction following the name of the warehouse, but that due to the proximity to Portland Street South, may have become known as Portland Basin. However, the 'marina' - albeit a more recent development I'm sure - at the end of the arm from Dukinfield Junction has called itself 'Portland Basin Marina'. That might be merely a modern contrivance, but what then is the name of the basin just West of Whitelands bridge and which is accessed from Lower Wharf St.?

 

You are missing the point Derek, the only junction identified on that map is "Ashton Junction", at the T junction where the two routes meet. It does not mark anything as "Dukinfield Junction", from that map alone you can not infer that the boundary was anywhere other than "Ashton Junction".

 

Of course other sources say otherwise, but maps such as this actually generate confusion rather than solve it. I'm glad Martin put it up, but it doesn't illustrate the point regarding where the connection between the two companies actually was, it's Martin's photos that do that.